Can the UAW just die already?

[TBR]

I thought we were talking about Honda workers.

I know that it's doable but it would be a major step backwards in lifestyle for industrial workers.  Perhaps that's the new reality for workers in the US.

Oops...got my conversations crossed.

I don't know why unskilled industrial workers should make significantly more than people in other sectors of the economy.

[Submariner]

Oops...got my conversations crossed.

I don't know why unskilled industrial workers should make significantly more than people in other sectors of the economy.

I don't know why Obama was swept into office...oh wait...

[FoMoJo]

He lives/lived in Pittsburgh. Not an expensive place to live I am sure, but then how many auto manufacturing facilities are on the west coast or the northeast?

I meant did he live in a dorm? with his parents? in a less than desireable apartment? etc. 

My daughter makes $8.75 working part-time and going to university...but I still have to pay for all (most of) her expenses.  Her income is, pretty much, used up with day to day expenses like a bus pass, food and the occasional movie.

[FoMoJo]

Oops...got my conversations crossed.

I don't know why unskilled industrial workers should make significantly more than people in other sectors of the economy.

Well, that's why they unionized in the first place.  They were tired of working like slaves for a pittance.  The unions went too far though. 

[FoMoJo]

National poverty line for a family of 4 is $21,200.

I know our cost of living is a bit more than you guys down there but that seems like dirt poor.  I expect they could get more by going on welfare.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I know our cost of living is a bit more than you guys down there but that seems like dirt poor.  I expect they could get more by going on welfare.

Probably, but it's not like just anyone can get on welfare. The system is well regulated and designed to only give aid to those in tough financial situations that are incapable of making ends meet due to circumstances beyond their control.

[FoMoJo]

Probably, but it's not like just anyone can get on welfare. The system is well regulated and designed to only give aid to those in tough financial situations that are incapable of making ends meet due to circumstances beyond their control.

I'd like to hear what Dazzleman has to say about that .

[Raza]

I don't know why Obama was swept into office...oh wait...

Yeah you do.  Either that, or you're an idiot. 

[Lebowski]

I know that it's doable but it would be a major step backwards in lifestyle for industrial workers.  Perhaps that's the new reality for workers in the US.

Dual income families in the US has been the "new reality" for an enormous portion of American families for decades now.  Not sure it can be called "new" anymore.

[Lebowski]

I know our cost of living is a bit more than you guys down there but that seems like dirt poor.  I expect they could get more by going on welfare.

Uh, what did you think "poverty line" referred to?

If you're living below the poverty line, you're pretty fuckin poor.  Hence, it seems like dirt poor.

[the Teuton]

I meant did he live in a dorm? with his parents? in a less than desireable apartment? etc. 

My daughter makes $8.75 working part-time and going to university...but I still have to pay for all (most of) her expenses.  Her income is, pretty much, used up with day to day expenses like a bus pass, food and the occasional movie.

Decent apartment on a quiet street perpendicular to a bunch of rather "eventful" streets.  I have a car, I paid $45 a month on cable, paid for gas for the car, rent, food, some fun things with about 15% of my paycheck taken out in taxes and still had money to spare.

It can be done on $8/hour full-time, 40-45 hours a week.

[MX793]

I know our cost of living is a bit more than you guys down there but that seems like dirt poor.  I expect they could get more by going on welfare.

IIRC, the average household income in some of the cities (the city proper, not the surrounding suburb villages) around here is in the mid 20Ks.

[r0tor]

i just got to throw 2 union schlubs off my project and have blacklisted them from ever returning to work at our site again.

The project is near its end and they figured they could fuck around and drag things out another few days so they could get paid another few days.  Unfortunately for them, those few days are worth somewhere in the high 6 figure dollar range for our company... so instead of getting a couple extra days pay they got sent home early and are not allowed back on-site EVER.

The supervisor was furious with them and agreed when I pointed out its shit like them that has given unions a bad reputation in this country.

[Atomic]

Tuesday, November 18, 2008

Chrysler CEO Says Company Has $6.1 Billion In the Bank

By: David Shepardson

For: Detroit News Washington Bureau

WASHINGTON -- Chrysler LLC burned through $5 billion in the first nine months of the year, the company's chairman and CEO told Congress today, adding that the company has just $6.1 billion left in the bank and will be "dangerously close" to running out of money by the end of the year.

Robert Nardelli confirmed for the first time how much cash the privately held company had burned through -- "roughly $1 billion a month." Chrysler burned through about $3 billion in cash in the third quarter, meaning Detroit's Big Three automakers burned through $17.6 billion in that time period. General Motors Corp. burned through $6.9 billion; and Ford $7.7 billion.

GM chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said the company would burn through roughly $15 billion by year's end, on top of the $12.9 billion it had burned through in the first nine months of the year.

i would hate to see gm get it's grubby hands on chrysler's money. hopefully, nissan and chrysler will merge. another rumor - chrysler and vw.

i agree with the author and say no to the bailout. however, if the government caves in (for the sake of the workers), the ceo's need to go. in today's newspaper, i read that over 9,000 gm brass receive a brand new car at about $200/month (or less) every three to six months as a company perk. an additional $50 (not a misprint!) allows them any car of their choice (i.e. corvette, cts-v)! the enormous incomes of the corporate heads, the pensions and bonuses are enough to make one extremely ill. this mismanagement of the big three cannot be blamed on the g.o.p. or dems. it's their own fault.

liberals and conservatives need to unite. i do not want to make this a political matter. the big three must be given very strict guidelines if they are to receive any cash whatsoever!

i say - file for chapter 11!

[Colonel Cadillac]

I must start off by saying that I am all for Chrysler selling off Jeep, shutting down, liquidating all their assets and paying off creditors and if there is anything left to give dividends to employees. I don't see why they should exist anymore, there is no way they could return to profitability at this point--they're too shitty without Jeep.

Next, if the Big Three fail, I can't help but think that their massive amounts of debt is going to be commanded to be payed back through the liquidation of all their assets, leaving very little to restructure with (if possible at that point).

Now, how big is the job market? I read that something like 2 million jobs will be lost through the industry if the Big Three fail. The US population is something like 300 million, and I am very roughly estimating that 2/3 of the population works. That makes up 200 million people, and 2 million is an entire 1% of the job market. The failure would result in an entire percentage jump in the unemployment rate. According to http://www.bls.gov/cps/ , the unemployment rate for October is 6.2%, an entire percentage point would be terrible. 

[FoMoJo]

Did anyone watch any of the big 3 CEO's grilling by the Senate Banking Committee yesterday.  I caught the end of it Big 3 CEOs plead for aid on CNBC.  I was a bit surprised at the vitriol displayed by a couple of the senators. 

[Tave]

Now, how big is the job market? I read that something like 2 million jobs will be lost through the industry if the Big Three fail. The US population is something like 300 million, and I am very roughly estimating that 2/3 of the population works. That makes up 200 million people, and 2 million is an entire 1% of the job market. The failure would result in an entire percentage jump in the unemployment rate. According to http://www.bls.gov/cps/ , the unemployment rate for October is 6.2%, an entire percentage point would be terrible. 

The trick is to balance that "terrible" with the long-term economic effects of public subsidy. If "terrible" means we avoid "complete meltdown," then maybe we should tuck our chins and take "terrible" on the nose.

[Tave]

Did anyone watch any of the big 3 CEO's grilling by the Senate Banking Committee yesterday.  I caught the end of it Big 3 CEOs plead for aid on CNBC.  I was a bit surprised at the vitriol displayed by a couple of the senators. 

I watched it a bit.

I just hope the big 3 don't skull-fuck the rest of the country if/as their businesses fail.

[GoCougs]

Dividends go to shareholders not employees.

Jeep isn't worth any more than Chrysler's other divisions - I'd say probably even less than Dodge.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Dividends go to shareholders not employees.

Jeep isn't worth any more than Chrysler's other divisions - I'd say probably even less than Dodge.

Yes dividends go to shareholders and not employees, and dividends never will be given to the employees, but it would make sense here if Chrysler were to shut down early and before they go bankrupt and with the extra money (if any) to "buy out" employees through dividends (maybe call them something else...) so that they would comply with an early shut down.

And wasn't Chrysler going to sell Jeep before a possible buyout by GM, because it was the only somewhat valuable company they owned?

Jeep has got to be worth more than Dodge--Dodge has the Ram and a minivan, but Jeep has the GC, Liberty, and Wrangler which I believe were (before the meltdown) doing fairly well.

[Madman]

I'm getting really sick of the Union-bashing going on in here.  Radical right-wing Neo-Facist talk radio is trying to blame all of Detroit's problems on the UAW and it seems a few people here have swallowed that tripe hook, line and sinker.

The people who should be blamed for the downfall of Detroit are not on the shop floor, they are in the executive boardroom.  It's the suits in their Ivory Towers who are the ones who fought against fuel efficient cars, dismissed the threat of the import invasion and pushed the buying public into cheap-to-produce trucks and SUVs.  Meanwhile, the UAW gave numerous concessions to the carmakers just in the past year.  At the same time, the executives continued to award themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.

Why does the Bush administration bend over backwards to bail out the rich fat cats on Wall Street but won't do squat for the car industry?  Because they WANT the carmakers to fail and go bankrupt!  Their reasoning is that if Detroit goes under, the legs will be cut off from under the UAW and GM, Ford and Chrysler can pay workers slave wages and ship most of their remaining jobs to China and Mexico.  This will be the culmination of the Republican's war against the working class that began with Ronald Reagan in 1981.  The Republican Facists don't care if America's working class are starving, just as long as they and their fat-cat buddies can live high on the hog from the sweat of the American worker.  If anyone deserves to lose their jobs, it's the executives who ran these companies into the ground in the first place!

I only hope the Detroit carmakers can hold out long enough for Barack Obama to come to the rescue, provided the car companies are prepared to radically restucture under more sustainable lines.


Cheers,
Madman of the People

[TBR]

I'm getting really sick of the Union-bashing going on in here.  Radical right-wing Neo-Facist talk radio is trying to blame all of Detroit's problems on the UAW and it seems a few people here have swallowed that tripe hook, line and sinker.

The people who should be blamed for the downfall of Detroit are not on the shop floor, they are in the executive boardroom.  It's the suits in their Ivory Towers who are the ones who fought against fuel efficient cars, dismissed the threat of the import invasion and pushed the buying public into cheap-to-produce trucks and SUVs.  Meanwhile, the UAW gave numerous concessions to the carmakers just in the past year.  At the same time, the executives continued to award themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.

Why does the Bush administration bend over backwards to bail out the rich fat cats on Wall Street but won't do squat for the car industry?  Because they WANT the carmakers to fail and go bankrupt!  Their reasoning is that if Detroit goes under, the legs will be cut off from under the UAW and GM, Ford and Chrysler can pay workers slave wages and ship most of their remaining jobs to China and Mexico.  This will be the culmination of the Republican's war against the working class that began with Ronald Reagan in 1981.  The Republican Facists don't care if America's working class are starving, just as long as they and their fat-cat buddies can live high on the hog from the sweat of the American worker.  If anyone deserves to lose their jobs, it's the executives who ran these companies into the ground in the first place!

I only hope the Detroit carmakers can hold out long enough for Barack Obama to come to the rescue, provided the car companies are prepared to radically restucture under more sustainable lines.


Cheers,
Madman of the People

"Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says."

I agree that the company leadership is the one that allowed this situation to arise, but hindsight is 20/20. Here and now the UAW is GM's biggest problem. How can GM possibly make money on competitive products at competitive  prices when they're paying 4x what their competition is for labor? It is impossible.

To some extent the bank bail out makes sense since the government did play a large role in creating a situation where the banks bought and offered loans they wouldn't have under free market conditions and proper regulation. Nonetheless, more government involvement is hardly the answer to fault government involvement. I personally would rather that the government stay out of the bailing out business altogether.

[GoCougs]

I'd be real sick too when confronted with the reality that the UAW ruined Detroit (and ruined many an industry prior plus currently doing real hit jobs on the airlines, ports and education).

However, it is senior management that chose to give such power to the unions, so ultimately the fault rests with them. But there is no alternate reality to the fact that the proverbial gun to the head were the unions.

With union membership declining year after year, and down some 80+% since its peak in the 1950s, Final Judgment is in on the subject of unions.

[FoMoJo]

I'm getting really sick of the Union-bashing going on in here.  Radical right-wing Neo-Facist talk radio is trying to blame all of Detroit's problems on the UAW and it seems a few people here have swallowed that tripe hook, line and sinker.

The people who should be blamed for the downfall of Detroit are not on the shop floor, they are in the executive boardroom.  It's the suits in their Ivory Towers who are the ones who fought against fuel efficient cars, dismissed the threat of the import invasion and pushed the buying public into cheap-to-produce trucks and SUVs.  Meanwhile, the UAW gave numerous concessions to the carmakers just in the past year.  At the same time, the executives continued to award themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.

Why does the Bush administration bend over backwards to bail out the rich fat cats on Wall Street but won't do squat for the car industry?  Because they WANT the carmakers to fail and go bankrupt!  Their reasoning is that if Detroit goes under, the legs will be cut off from under the UAW and GM, Ford and Chrysler can pay workers slave wages and ship most of their remaining jobs to China and Mexico.  This will be the culmination of the Republican's war against the working class that began with Ronald Reagan in 1981.  The Republican Facists don't care if America's working class are starving, just as long as they and their fat-cat buddies can live high on the hog from the sweat of the American worker.  If anyone deserves to lose their jobs, it's the executives who ran these companies into the ground in the first place!

I only hope the Detroit carmakers can hold out long enough for Barack Obama to come to the rescue, provided the car companies are prepared to radically restucture under more sustainable lines.


Cheers,
Madman of the People

There's something to that as well.

In the tradition of laissez faire capitalism, labour is a property that is owned by the workers.  They will trade it for what they can get.

[Vinsanity]

I only hope the Detroit carmakers can hold out long enough for Barack Obama to come to the rescue, provided the car companies are prepared to radically restucture under more sustainable lines.

And restructuring would involve...guess what? killing the UAW. Or at least saying adios to $65/hour plus full health benefits and pensions.

Also, I just love how liberals are waiting breathlessly for January 20 to roll around for the Barack Obama comet to pass by and solve all the problems.

[FoMoJo]

And restructuring would involve...guess what? killing the UAW. Or at least saying adios to $65/hour plus full health benefits and pensions.

Also, I just love how liberals are waiting breathlessly for January 20 to roll around for the Barack Obama comet to pass by and solve all the problems.

It's reasonable that they be allowed to survive until 2010 when the healthcare negotiations reached with the union kicks in thus removing the burden of healthcare as well having some advantage of the entry level wages for new employees.  From statements made, it seems that Ford can do this, GM will have to unload a bunch of assets and Chrysler will not survive.  It's, practically, been stated by those opposed, senators et al, that one must die and Chrysler is the weakest.

[AutobahnSHO]

Detroit CHOSE to give that power to the UAW. Absolutely there were economic, societal and political pressures that greased the transfer, but at the end of the day, the farmer wasn't minding his chicken coop, and slowly over the years let the foxes take over.

Detroit broke itself.

Mr Ford resisted the Unions much longer than GM did, but in the end had to give in.
NO EMPLOYER in their right mind wants a union strangling them.

[Soup DeVille]

Mr Ford resisted the Unions much longer than GM did, but in the end had to give in.
NO EMPLOYER in their right mind wants a union strangling them.

Battle of the Overpass.

There wasn't much "choice" about the matter.

[AutobahnSHO]

BTW,

How come the auto industry wasn't crying about a "bailout" until the banks got theirs???????

-If the auto industry gets free handouts, then what about the "ailing airline industry"?
-How about the poor 'housebuilding' group?
-Don't forget the ________________, the ___________________, and the ______________ !.!.!.!.!.

[FordSVT]

^The airlines got a huge bailout after 9/11. And it wasn't because of 9/11, that was just a catalyst that sealed the deal on an inevitable situation.

They capitalized on the situation, just like the automakers are trying to capitalize on the current financial crisis.