Can the UAW just die already?

[Laconian]

Free market capitalism, my ass.

[FoMoJo]

^The airlines got a huge bailout after 9/11. And it wasn't because of 9/11, that was just a catalyst that sealed the deal on an inevitable situation.

They capitalized on the situation, just like the automakers are trying to capitalize on the current financial crisis.

Ford (Mullally) has said that they could go another year if present economical climate doesn't worsen and they'd like the money available if/when they needed it.  GM and Chrysler weren't quite to forthcoming with Chrysler, pretty much, saying they've got 'til the end of the year.  Wagoner looked like he may be blowing a bit of smoke.

[SVT32V]

I'm getting really sick of the Union-bashing going on in here.  Radical right-wing Neo-Facist talk radio is trying to blame all of Detroit's problems on the UAW and it seems a few people here have swallowed that tripe hook, line and sinker.

The people who should be blamed for the downfall of Detroit are not on the shop floor, they are in the executive boardroom.  It's the suits in their Ivory Towers who are the ones who fought against fuel efficient cars, dismissed the threat of the import invasion and pushed the buying public into cheap-to-produce trucks and SUVs.  Meanwhile, the UAW gave numerous concessions to the carmakers just in the past year.  At the same time, the executives continued to award themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.

Why does the Bush administration bend over backwards to bail out the rich fat cats on Wall Street but won't do squat for the car industry?  Because they WANT the carmakers to fail and go bankrupt!  Their reasoning is that if Detroit goes under, the legs will be cut off from under the UAW and GM, Ford and Chrysler can pay workers slave wages and ship most of their remaining jobs to China and Mexico.  This will be the culmination of the Republican's war against the working class that began with Ronald Reagan in 1981.  The Republican Facists don't care if America's working class are starving, just as long as they and their fat-cat buddies can live high on the hog from the sweat of the American worker.  If anyone deserves to lose their jobs, it's the executives who ran these companies into the ground in the first place!

I only hope the Detroit carmakers can hold out long enough for Barack Obama to come to the rescue, provided the car companies are prepared to radically restucture under more sustainable lines.


Cheers,
Madman of the People

It truly boogles the mind that people actually think that the democrats have supported the unions in any meaningful way.

You do realize that the major treaties that dealt the deathblow to manufacturing and unions in the US were all signed into law by a democratic president. NAFTA (although republican in its roots) was signed into law by Bill Clinton.

Even more harmful was the China Free Trade Act, absolutely condemning any manufacturing jobs in the US.  This was also signed by good old Bill Clinton, it may have been helped along by Hillary's ties to the Sam Walton family of Walmart fame, where she was a lawyer for him. Really, Walmart is at the forefront of the manufacturing decline with its emphasis on China's manufacturing.

The table was already set for Bush by Clinton and Walmart/China ran the table on union workers.  Short of repealling both (never happen anyway) there is little the current president could have done even if he was so inclined.

Of note is the fact that most liberals are of the armchair variety, as I look out the window of my ivory tower into the parking lot I see a sea of import cars made by nonunion workers.  I can count the number of my liberal colleagues that drive a vehicle from the big three with one or two fingers.

You do realize that UAW legacy costs are ~$2000 per car, the only way to sustain that kind of hit are on vehicles that cost a lot and have great profits (i.e. big SUVs and trucks).  No way to make that kind of money on a focus or malibu.   If you don't think that kind of disadvantage doesn't also tie the hands of the designers and bean counters to making less than competitive cars you are not being honest.  Then you lambast them for trying to make a profitable big vehicle.

[Vinsanity]

Of note is the fact that most liberals are of the armchair variety, as I look out the window of my ivory tower into the parking lot I see a sea of import cars made by nonunion workers.  I can count the number of my liberal colleagues that drive a vehicle from the big three with one or two fingers.

Not sure what you were expecting. The lefty liberal vehicle of choice by far is the Prius. Not a Civic hybrid... the Prius.

[Secret Chimp]

Yeah, we all drive Priuses and buy five dollar free-trade organic coffees, just like you all drive giant pickups and have Dixie ringtones :P

[Vinsanity]

oh, right. And Miatas. Priuseses and Miatas

[Vinsanity]

oh, and I'll have you know, young man, that my ringtone is the Glen Miller classic "In the Mood"

/scoff

[Madman]

oh, and I'll have you know, young man, that my ringtone is the Glen Miller classic "In the Mood"

/scoff

Now there's a man with good taste!  Although, I would prefer something a bit more upbeat as a ringtone.  Cab Calloway, perhaps?  Or maybe Gene Krupa's drum solo from Sing, Sing, Sing with a bit of Benny Goodman's clarinet and Harry James' trumpet, too!  Now that's REAL music!

For those of you young whipper-snappers who don't know what I'm going on about......

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gzaVNwkoZqc&feature=related


Cheers,
Madman of the People

[the Teuton]

oh, right. And Miatas. Priuseses and Miatas

There were a whole bunch of them parked outside during the anti-Prop 8 rally the other week.

[TurboDan]

The end-game of this situation continues to be: if people don't buy their cars, the companies will go out of business.  They can get bailouts, union concessions, anything.  If these companies do not find customers to purchase their products, bankruptcy and shutdown is inevitable.

[FordSVT]

^Millions of people every year buy their products, they still have massive market shares. The problem is their overhead and legacy issues. If it wasn't for the fact that they employ too many people and are still paying too much retirement benefits they'd be in the black. Both of those are union problems in the end. If they were Toyota, they'd can several hundred thousand people and close plants as they saw fit. Hell, I'm pretty sure both GM and Ford are in the black everywhere but the USA. Unfortunately it's their biggest and most important market.

But yes, they need to slash brands and models and people in the end.

[Tave]

^The airlines got a huge bailout after 9/11. And it wasn't because of 9/11, that was just a catalyst that sealed the deal on an inevitable situation.

They capitalized on the situation, just like the automakers are trying to capitalize on the current financial crisis.

But what were we supposed to do if the airlines collapsed, fly Finnair?

[FordSVT]

Not all US Airlines were in financial trouble, they wouldn't all have gone under. And what's wrong with Finnair? Or British Airways?

Don't the same arguments apply? It would not have meant all airlines were going to go under, just a few of the big US Airlines. There were alternatives, the weak should have been allowed to die on the vine and the rest could have bought their planes as necessary and picked up the slack. How is that any different?

And yes, I realize there are some differences, I'm just paying Devil's Advocate. My general point stands though: many of those airlines were in the situation they were in because of their own bad decisions, the events of 9/11 simply hastened the threat of their demise, just like the current financial crisis is simply hastening the domestic automaker's eventual demise.

[Tave]

And what's wrong with Finnair? Or British Airways?

They don't fly any US domestic routes.

Don't the same arguments apply?

No. There are too many practical differences between the two industries.

It would not have meant all airlines were going to go under, just a few of the big US Airlines.

Which service a gigantic portion of our demand, and are often the only provider to offer a specific service at a given location.

Look, when Ford or GM goes under, a person can go down the street to Toyota and buy the same product. When United goes under, and there isn't another airline at the ticket counter, who are you going to buy a seat from?

And yes, I realize there are some differences, I'm just paying Devil's Advocate. My general point stands though: many of those airlines were in the situation they were in because of their own bad decisions, the events of 9/11 simply hastened the threat of their demise, just like the current financial crisis is simply hastening the domestic automaker's eventual demise.

Isn't the airline industry much more beholden to the fed than the auto industry?

[Lebowski]

Not all US Airlines were in financial trouble, they wouldn't all have gone under. And what's wrong with Finnair? Or British Airways?

Don't the same arguments apply? It would not have meant all airlines were going to go under, just a few of the big US Airlines. There were alternatives, the weak should have been allowed to die on the vine and the rest could have bought their planes as necessary and picked up the slack. How is that any different?

And yes, I realize there are some differences, I'm just paying Devil's Advocate. My general point stands though: many of those airlines were in the situation they were in because of their own bad decisions, the events of 9/11 simply hastened the threat of their demise, just like the current financial crisis is simply hastening the domestic automaker's eventual demise.

Many of the airlines were ultimately allowed to file Ch 11, as the Big 3 eventually will.

[FordSVT]

They don't fly any US domestic routes.

No. There are too many practical differences between the two industries.

Which service a gigantic portion of our demand, and are often the only provider to offer a specific service at a given location.

Look, when Ford or GM goes under, a person can go down the street to Toyota and buy the same product. When United goes under, and there isn't another airline at the ticket counter, who are you going to buy a seat from?

Isn't the airline industry much more beholden to the fed than the auto industry?

Why couldn't foreign airlines start flying domestic routes vacated by the domestic companies? Why couldn't the domestic companies that remain pick up the slack?

[Soup DeVille]

Not all US Airlines were in financial trouble, they wouldn't all have gone under. And what's wrong with Finnair? Or British Airways?

I don't know about Finnair, but BA rocks. If they ever decided to infiltrate the US domestic market, I'd pay to fly with them. That, or JAL.

[J86]

Now there's a man with good taste!  Although, I would prefer something a bit more upbeat as a ringtone.  Cab Calloway, perhaps?  Or maybe Gene Krupa's drum solo from Sing, Sing, Sing with a bit of Benny Goodman's clarinet and Harry James' trumpet, too!  Now that's REAL music!

For those of you young whipper-snappers who don't know what I'm going on about......

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gzaVNwkoZqc&feature=related


Cheers,
Madman of the People

Benny Goodman?  Chick Webb swung harder!