Another CVPI fire death in Florida this time

[rohan]

RIP Officer Del Rio. 


http://www.officer.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=44303

Story by local10.com



HOLLYWOOD, Fla. --

Some are questioning why a car burst into flames when a veteran Hollywood police officer crashed it into a tree over the weekend and died.

Hollywood Police Chief Chad Wagner had the full attention of roughly 100 members of his department on Monday as he personally updated them on the investigation into the death of Officer Alex Del Rio and how the agency plans to say farewell.

"Everybody is grieving," Wagner said. "It's a rollercoaster ride. Everyone's trying to figure it out."

Some want to know why Del Rio's Ford Crown Victoria exploded into a ball of flames when it slammed into a tree on Sheridan Street on Saturday night, trapping the 31-year-old officer inside.

Attorney Michael Eidson said the answer might not be hard to figure out.

"It's got the gas tank located behind the rear axle," Eidson said. "It's a relatively unprotected zone."

Eidson called Ford's design of the Crown Victoria "defective" because the gas tank is in the area of the car designed to absorb the impact in a rear-end collision. Since 1993, more than two-dozen officers around the U.S. have been killed in Crown Victoria explosions, and dozens more have been severely burned, Local 10's Roger Lohse reported.

In 2003, after a flurry of lawsuits, Ford began making the police model of the Crown Victoria with a special shield to protect the gas tank from being punctured by the rear axle.

Del Rio's cruiser was made in 2005 and presumably had the shield, but his cruiser hit the tree sideways.

"That shield can protect fuel systems at a 75-mph rear-end impact. There are still places where other things can get through and puncture the tank," Eidson said.

Many agencies have fitted their Crown Victorias with special Kevlar boxes in the trunks so their equipment can’t puncture the car’s gas tank in a crash, but that still leaves the sides of the tanks exposed.

In a written statement to Local 10 on Monday, a spokeswoman for the Ford Motor Co. said the Crown Victoria Police Interceptor "has a proven track record as a safe vehicle for high-risk police work. Police have greater exposure to accidents because of the unique ways in which they use their cars. The accidents … have occurred at speeds well beyond the design capability of any vehicle on the road."

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration looked into issue several years ago. It said the Crown Victoria passed its safety test because it didn't explode in collisions in which the impact was 35 mph or less.


Copyright 2008 by Local10.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[rohan]

You know everyone keep saying that all cars burst into flames and for the most part I agree with that that all cars have that potential but it'
s funny----- I have not read of one single death in ten years about anyone getting killed by burning to death in a squad that wasn't a CVPI.  NOT ONE.



I'm not saying it don't happen I'm just saying I don't know of one anywhere.

[ifcar]

You know everyone keep saying that all cars burst into flames and for the most part I agree with that that all cars have that potential but it'
s funny----- I have not read of one single death in ten years about anyone getting killed by burning to death in a squad that wasn't a CVPI.  NOT ONE.



I'm not saying it don't happen I'm just saying I don't know of one anywhere.

Most police cars are Crown Victorias, so it would stand to reason that most accidents and deaths of any type in police cars would involve Crown Victorias.

[rohan]

But the rate is almost twice what it was for the Caprice which was them the most popular car by far and also had the gas tank behind the rear axle.

[ifcar]

But the rate is almost twice what it was for the Caprice which was them the most popular car by far and also had the gas tank behind the rear axle.

Insufficient sample size, I'd think.

[rohan]

Forgive me but I'm not sure what you mean?

At one time Caprice had about 80-90% of the market- more than the CVPI holds now.

[ifcar]

What I mean is that there haven't been enough police car explosions to make a statistically valid determination, because so many accidents depend entirely on the specific circumstances more than the design of the car.

[MX793]

Any vehicle can burst into flames in a collision in the right conditions.  At any time, most motor vehicles have several gallons of flammable liquid on board.  I don't think this is in any way indicative of the CV being fire-prone nor is it related to the previous fires caused by high-speed rearend collisions.  This car hit the tree sideways.  Likely scenario is that a fuel line was severed or cracked in the crash and that fuel was ignited after it splashed on a hot surface (like the exhaust).  Could have happened in any vehicle.  In fact, a truck driver I used to work with T-boned a pickup that made an illegal U-turn on the highway with his rig recently and the pickup burst into flames (the driver of the pickup unfortunately died).

[rohan]

Any vehicle can burst into flames in a collision in the right conditions.  At any time, most motor vehicles have several gallons of flammable liquid on board.  I don't think this is in any way indicative of the CV being fire-prone nor is it related to the previous fires caused by high-speed rearend collisions.  This car hit the tree sideways.  Likely scenario is that a fuel line was severed or cracked in the crash and that fuel was ignited after it splashed on a hot surface (like the exhaust).  Could have happened in any vehicle.  In fact, a truck driver I used to work with T-boned a pickup that made an illegal U-turn on the highway with his rig recently and the pickup burst into flames (the driver of the pickup unfortunately died).

Then why aren't we hearing of ANY Impalas or Chargers bursting into flames?  I know what ifcar said and it makes some sense but I know for a fact aht the others are being crashed to.  So what gives?  And- it's not just cops people in limos and their own personal CV;'s have been made into toast.  I'm happy to say this is one area I have a lot of influence over in my department and we're done buying CVPI's.

"Eidson called Ford's design of the Crown Victoria "defective" because the gas tank is in the area of the car designed to absorb the impact in a rear-end collision. Since 1993, more than two-dozen officers around the U.S. have been killed in Crown Victoria explosions, and dozens more have been severely burned, Local 10's Roger Lohse reported. "


Oh yeah and what kind and year of pick up was the guy driving do you know? 

[Madman]

In fact, a truck driver I used to work with T-boned a pickup that made an illegal U-turn on the highway with his rig recently and the pickup burst into flames (the driver of the pickup unfortunately died).

More than likely one of the old GM pickups with the infamous side-mounted tanks?

Cheers,
Madman of the People

[MX793]

Then why aren't we hearing of ANY Impalas or Chargers bursting into flames?  I know what ifcar said and it makes some sense but I know for a fact aht the others are being crashed to.  So what gives?  And- it's not just cops people in limos and their own personal CV;'s have been made into toast.  I'm happy to say this is one area I have a lot of influence over in my department and we're done buying CVPI's.

"Eidson called Ford's design of the Crown Victoria "defective" because the gas tank is in the area of the car designed to absorb the impact in a rear-end collision. Since 1993, more than two-dozen officers around the U.S. have been killed in Crown Victoria explosions, and dozens more have been severely burned, Local 10's Roger Lohse reported. "


Oh yeah and what kind and year of pick up was the guy driving do you know? 

Had this been another rearend collision, I'd agree that it could be chalked up with the tally of other fires that have occured when the rear of the vehicles were struck.  But this one involved the car going sideways into a tree.  It wasn't rearended by another vehicle, it didn't slide back-asswards into the tree, it went sideways into the tree.  There's no way you can point to the fuel tank being located aft of the rear axle (in the rear crumple zone) as being a factor here because the rear of the vehicle wasn't, presumably, the part that was hit.

Vehicles do, from time to time, burst into flames after an impact.  That fact that they carry several different flammable liquids on board makes fire a potential outcome of a collision.  While it's possible that this particular fire was caused by a fuel line rupture, it's also entirely likely that the fire started because an oil line cracked open and dumped flammable motor oil on a hot surface (making it completely unrelated to the fuel system and previous gas tank fires).  While the frequency of fires that occur in rearend collisions would indicate that there is a likely design issue with the CV, I think that this particular fire was just one of those unfortunate instances where a vehicle, and it could have been any vehicle, simply caught fire as a result of a collision.

And I do not know the age or make of the pickup.  News only reported that a pickup and a semi collided and then caught fire and the pickup driver was pronounced DotS.

[hotrodalex]

Um, a lot of cars have the gas tank behind the rear axle. They all can potentially blow up when hit really hard. It's not just a CV design flaw.

[rohan]

Federal laws don't allow new cars designs to be sold here with the tank behind the axle- they made Pontiac move the GTO tank befor ethey could bring them over.

[rohan]

Had this been another rearend collision, I'd agree that it could be chalked up with the tally of other fires that have occured when the rear of the vehicles were struck.  But this one involved the car going sideways into a tree. 

True enough.  The only argument I'ld make about that is we don't know what "sideways" means.

[hotrodalex]

Federal laws don't allow new cars designs to be sold here with the tank behind the axle- they made Pontiac move the GTO tank befor ethey could bring them over.

But there are still plenty of cars out on the road with them.

[rohan]

Yes there are but that should end.  The Panther is about 28 years old- and many departments aren't about to risk their officers lives in them anymore.  Mine included.  The guy who's position I got had ordered 8 new ones for this January's budget------- I cancelled the order. 
What did I order you asked?  Chargers.

[3.0L V6]

More than likely one of the old GM pickups with the infamous side-mounted tanks?

Cheers,
Madman of the People

You mean the one that Dateline rigged to explode? The one that GM caught after analyzing the footage and made Dateline apologize for on live television?

[Madman]

You mean the one that Dateline rigged to explode? The one that GM caught after analyzing the footage and made Dateline apologize for on live television?

Yeah, those trucks.  There was a design flaw with these tanks but Dateline blew their credibility when it was discovered they had rigged the crash test.  Evidently the director wanted to make sure the tank exploded on cue and didn't feel like buying multiple trucks just to get the desired results on film.  Still, that doesnt absolve GM from the actual explosions that occured because of those poorly designed tanks.

Cheers,
Madman of the People

[JWC]

The body design of the CV has changed since it competed directly with the Caprice.  I'd venture to say that the Impala hasn't been used as an interceptor to the degree  of the CV.   Crowns tend to burn when hit from behind by another vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed.  I watched a video on YouTube not long ago of a CV being creamed while sitting along side of an interstate and it didn't burn.  The officer was injured but climbed out of the wreckage.  We only pay attention to the ones that make the news and those tend to be the ones where the car burns.

[JWC]

If I remember correctly, the Crown Interceptor is currently the only car to undergo 75mph rear crash tests.  I don't believe the Charge has been subjected to those test.

[rohan]

If I remember correctly, the Crown Interceptor is currently the only car to undergo 75mph rear crash tests.  I don't believe the Charge has been subjected to those test.

I have some real doubts about those tests- Ford says to the public it passed them but insiders told a different story.  It seems like Ford couldn't care less about people's lives then - or now- if they did they'ld just move the damed gas tanks.  I just don't understand why they didn't just move the tanks on the newer models.

March 4, 2003
Ford Motor Company officials have admitted in sworn testimony that a Crown Victoria police car equipped with new fuel tank safety shields flunked its own crash test.

This disclosure and others were made by Dallas City Attorney Madeleine Johnson, who is suing Ford in an attempt to discover if Ford's popular police cruiser is safe enough for police. Fourteen law enforcement officers have died in Crown Victoria fuel-fed fires after being rear-ended at high speeds.

Ford announced Sept. 27, it would install fuel tank shields on some 350,000 Crown Vic police cars, touting a crash test it claimed showed the shields effective at speeds up to 75 miles per hour. However, a Ford official acknowledged in a deposition taken last month that the crash-tested tank actually leaked more than 40 ounces of a fuel substitute known as Stoddard. Federal standards limit fuel tank leaks in crash tests to no more than one ounce.

"Instead of the success Ford claimed it was, the crash test obviously was an abject failure, and calls seriously into question Ford's claims that the new fuel tank shields are enough to solve Crown Vic fuel tank safety problems," Ms. Johnson said.

Ms. Johnson emphasized that even small fuel tank punctures can touch off fiery explosions since the fuel is expelled under pressure in the form of an aerosol-like mist and soon forms a vapor cloud that engulfs the vehicle.

"We know all too well this tragedy -- we lost a member of our own family," Ms. Johnson said, referring to the death of Dallas Police Officer Patrick Metzler on Oct. 23, after his cruiser exploded when it was rear-ended.

Dallas patrol cars have been equipped with the new shields, which obviously offer some protection from fuel tank puncture, Ms. Johnson noted. "But I will continue to press for answers from Ford officials about why they persisted with the shield 'fix' in light of the shield's failure to withstand high speeds, and why they have rejected other technologies offering greater protection," Ms. Johnson said.

For example, Johnson noted, Ford has announced it will begin production soon of a $140,000 Lincoln Town Car with a fuel tank that self-seals if punctured. The new Lincoln 'Ballistic Protection Series' is designed to resist high-powered rifles and offer limited bomb-blast protection and has been in development for about two years, according to Ford.

This same technology was presented to a Ford technical task force last summer as a possible guard against Crown Vic police car fuel tank punctures, but was rejected as not being production ready, according to Ford documents and testimony.

"If this technology is now available, and obviously it has been for some time, why hasn't Ford offered this to police officers?" said Ms. Johnson. "As the leader in the police vehicle market, Ford has a big responsibility to say to law enforcement 'Your cars are as safe -- or safer -- than any vehicle we make.' "

Ms. Johnson said she learned from Ford that it will produce only 12,500 trunk safety packs a year, but there are more than 300,000 affected police cars on the road. The trunk packs, promised by the end of 2002, will be provided to police to store heavy objects that might be propelled through the trunk and into the fuel tank in a rear-end collision.

Until the packs become available, Ms. Johnson advised law enforcement agencies immediately to remove hard objects, or long stiff objects such as universal, 4-armed lug wrenches, from their trunks where possible. Only last month, a Texas Department of Public Safety vehicle operating in Bee County suffered a tank puncture when the corner of a videotape mounting bracket punctured the tank.

"It is shocking to learn that the tank, as designed, is endangered by ordinary radios and electronic equipment," Ms. Johnson said. "We currently are seeking to learn whether the trunk pack will accommodate this necessary police equipment."

Punctures from tank contents were involved in the deaths of Officer Robert Smith of Florida in 1997, Officer Hung Le of Louisiana in 1998, and Officer Skip Fink of Arizona in 2000.

Ms. Johnson said the depositions also revealed that the trunk packs, which include a Kevlar sheet, will cost $210 each, quadruple Ford's original estimate.

Ford has indicated it does not intend to cover the costs of providing trunk packs, but that this must be done at the law enforcement agencies' expense.

"We continue to maintain Ford has an obligation to provide trunk safety kits to police free of charge, and we will continue to press Ford on this issue," Ms. Johnson said.

Ford repeatedly has claimed that the technology does not exist to protect fuel tanks from puncture or leaks in a high-speed, rear end crash. Ms. Johnson said that depositions have confirmed that Ford consistently has refused to adopt readily available fuel tank safety technology from a number of sources. The Crown Victoria, manufactured for 24 years, has the oldest unchanged design of any car on the market. The longer a car goes without a redesign, the more profitable it is.

Deposition information so far also reveals a startling lack of action on the part of Ford to design a 'fix' of fuel tank problems that actually reflects the types of fuel tank damage that have led to fires and deaths, Ms. Johnson said.

"If I sound frustrated with Ford, it's because I am," said Ms. Johnson. "They say one thing in public, and another in sworn testimony. We've been at this for months, and we can't say for sure that our officers are a whole lot safer."

The City of Dallas and others suing Ford over the Crown Victoria police car are gathering sworn testimony from Ford officials as part of a consolidated discovery process before a federal judge in Cleveland. Ms. Johnson filed suit against Ford seeking Crown Victoria safety information last December in the wake of Officer Metzler's death.

[rohan]

I will admit they seem to be better- but it's still happening. 

[ifcar]

But the fact that it's happening doesn't demonstrate that the Crown Victoria is any more prone than any other car in a very demanding situation that few other cars are subject to.

[rohan]

But the fact that it's happening doesn't demonstrate that the Crown Victoria is any more prone than any other car in a very demanding situation that few other cars are subject to.

No but the Detroit News showed that it was in their study of the police cars.  It was more likely to have this problem than the Caprice with the same design.  I'll try to find that article again.

Right now I have a man in his house with  a gun that my guys are going to.  I'm going to head that way as well.

[rohan]

 
(Updated January 2006)   

-Ford?s ?Panther? line of cars ? the Crown Victoria, Town Car and Grand Marquis ? continue to be manufactured with the fuel tank located outside the protection of the rear axle. This location increases the potential for post-collision fires when these vehicles are struck from behind.

-This design flaw is responsible for the burning deaths of at least 21 police officers and scores of civilians, and severe injuries to hundreds of others. For a complete list of deaths and injuries by state, see www.Autosafety.org. Analyses of the accidents show the victims would have survived the accidents if the vehicles had not caught fire.

-After pressure from police agencies, Ford began retrofitting all older models of Crown Victoria police cars with protective fuel tank shields. Starting in 2004, the shields became standard equipment. Ford offered this same protection to Town Car limousines starting in September 2005. However, Ford has yet to notify the general public about these cars? vulnerability to rear impact fires and the availability of protective shields.

-The Crown Victoria, Town Car and Grand Marquis are the only passenger cars produced in North America that continue with this archaic and dangerous design. (source: Ford Motor Co.)

-Because of this design, high speed rear-end crashes push the fuel tank against portions of the rear axle or suspension system with enough force to rupture the tank, spill fuel and ignite the vehicle.

-Ford's own document (The 2001 Vogler Study) shows the rate of rear-end collision fire deaths for Ford's "Panther" police cruiser line is 140% higher than it is for the competitive GM line, and about double the rate for Ford's much smaller Escort line.

-An estimated five million unprotected civilian versions of the Panther line ? Crown Victorias, Lincoln Town Cars and Grand Marquis ? are in use on roadways today.

-Ford has admitted in a deposition that fuel-fed fires in this line of sedans already have claimed more lives than the Ford Pinto when it was recalled in the mid-1970s.

-The Center for Auto Safety, the nation?s oldest and largest consumer auto safety group, has urged Ford to redesign the Panther autos with a safer fuel tank location. That plea was joined in December 2005 by U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-New York, followed by the death of that state?s second cab driver in a Crown Victoria taxi.

http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/CVfactSheet.html

[rohan]

"Statistics developed by Ford revealed that Crown Victoria Police Interceptors have a rate of fatal collision fuel fed fires far higher than other vehicles. "



http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/Statistics.html


Remember the Caprice was the 80% LE owned patrol car from 1989 to 1996.  Very very few departments bought Crown Vics until the demise of the Caprice.

[Byteme]

But there are still plenty of cars out on the road with them.

I've owned three cars with the gas tank in the trunk.  My 68 and 78 Fiat spiders and my E-type.  I wonder if there are any statistics about vehicle fires on those particular models.

[ifcar]

"Statistics developed by Ford revealed that Crown Victoria Police Interceptors have a rate of fatal collision fuel fed fires far higher than other vehicles. "



http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/Statistics.html

But how many accidents is that based on? As I've said, I don't think it's enough to be statistically significant.

[Madman]

I've noticed lately that most of the police cruisers in my area now seem to be Chevrolet Impalas.  There are still a few Crown Vics around but their numbers seem to be dwindling.  I guess that's probably because of this safety issue?  (I also suspect the Impala gets better mileage, which may also be an important issue for police fleets?)  I haven't seen very many Dodge Chargers in police livery at all, however.

Cheers,
Madman of the People

[hounddog]

But how many accidents is that based on? As I've said, I don't think it's enough to be statistically significant.

Those numbers were developed by Ford.  That alone makes it significant, statistically or otherwise.