I'm an idiot...

[J86]

Because it snowed so much here last night, and I obviously need more practice, took my buddy's Sooby Impreza to the parking lot reacquaint myself with winter handling

[dazzleman]

I actually have people trying to tell me I'd be fine with summer tires in the snow since I have AWD, when I tell them I'd like to replace my Turanzas. I look at them in horror because of what they just said, and they don't get it. Even people at the dealer were like, "you have AWD! It doesn't matter what tires you have now!" Accelerating is one thing. Turning or stopping is very much something else.

I always find it hard to understand how so many people can be so badly misinformed about something.  It has to be willful.  The human race is a stupid, stupid outfit at times.

[dazzleman]

Because it snowed so much here last night, and I obviously need more practice, took my buddy's Sooby Impreza to the parking lot reacquaint myself with winter handling

Dude, you have to be a really fun guy to have around.....

[TBR]

I always find it hard to understand how so many people can be so badly misinformed about something.  It has to be willful.  The human race is a stupid, stupid outfit at times.

I blame marketing departments, particularly those of Audi and Subaru.

[Tave]

Yeah, bring me the head of Paul Hogan.

[BimmerM3]

I blame marketing departments, particularly those of Audi and Subaru.

I agree. AWD vehicles are marketed as being great for snow, and once you get some people to believe something, they pass it on, and you get to where we are now.

It's also a problem that people don't really understand how traction in cars work. When I did the Audi Driving Experience, they spent a good chuck of classroom time talking about the differences between traction for steering and traction for braking and accelerating and how they relate to one another. If every driver's ed program in the country did similar things, I bet it would help a lot.

[The Pirate]

Having driven all possible combinations, I'd take a 2WD (RWD preferably) car with good snow tires over an AWD with all seasons. 

[Rupert]

I've been driving my 2WD Ranger will all-season sort of tires over the semi-icy roads here for a week. I haven't had any problems.

[r0tor]

Having driven all possible combinations, I'd take a 2WD (RWD preferably) car with good snow tires over an AWD with all seasons. 

however, I can tell you for sure a snow tired AWD car is lightyears better then a snow tired RWD car

[The Pirate]

however, I can tell you for sure a snow tired AWD car is lightyears better then a snow tired RWD car

Very likely.  Hehe, that's the one combination that I haven't driven.

[GoCougs]

FWIW, AWD/4WD does help braking and handling in the snow, all else being equal.

With all four wheels locked in unison, the tendency to lock or spin individual axles and/or wheels is blunted (as in the rears on a truck), which presents an even more uncontrollable situation. The value is very marginal, but in my experience, it does exist.

The worst possible combo is a RWD vehicle with an LSD. The best is AWD/4WD with snow tires. I have found FWD w/studs to be better than 4WD with all-seasons.

[AutobahnSHO]

The whole "I HAVE 4WD/ AWD" thing cracks me up w/ truck owners.

I pulled a few trucks out of ditches w/ my Subaru back in the day (1991-1993, 1979 wagon) and they're always the ones off the highways in Wyoming/ UTah..

Some people just drive like it's perfect weather out. ?!

[MX793]

FWIW, AWD/4WD does help braking and handling in the snow, all else being equal.

With all four wheels locked in unison, the tendency to lock or spin individual axles and/or wheels is blunted (as in the rears on a truck), which presents an even more uncontrollable situation. The value is very marginal, but in my experience, it does exist.

The worst possible combo is a RWD vehicle with an LSD. The best is AWD/4WD with snow tires. I have found FWD w/studs to be better than 4WD with all-seasons.

I would think that a RWD with LSD would be better than one with an open.  Unless having both rear wheels getting power makes it extra squirrely.  I've done RWD/Open-diff in the snow and while handling was manageable, finding traction to accelerate could be a chore (especially when trying to take off on hills).

[GoCougs]

I would think that a RWD with LSD would be better than one with an open.  Unless having both rear wheels getting power makes it extra squirrely.  I've done RWD/Open-diff in the snow and while handling was manageable, finding traction to accelerate could be a chore (especially when trying to take off on hills).

Yes, I  have found RWD w/LSD (and no traction control especially) to be just far too unpredictable at anything above about 20 mph.

[hotrodalex]

however, I can tell you for sure a snow tired AWD car is lightyears better then a snow tired RWD car

Not in the fun department.

[MaxPower]

The whole "I HAVE 4WD/ AWD" thing cracks me up w/ truck owners.

I pulled a few trucks out of ditches w/ my Subaru back in the day (1991-1993, 1979 wagon) and they're always the ones off the highways in Wyoming/ UTah..

Some people just drive like it's perfect weather out. ?!

Agreed.  I prefer a Subaru to my 4WD pickup truck in almost all bad weather conditions--the single problem with the Subaru is that it's not as high as the truck, making it prone to getting stuck easier in deep snow.

[dazzleman]

Not in the fun department.

I had a little fun on Saturday, when all the roads around me had packed snow on them.  I have a RWD car, and I don't have snow tires.

Getting stuck, or really losing control, is not a lot of fun, though.

[hotrodalex]

I had a little fun on Saturday, when all the roads around me had packed snow on them.  I have a RWD car, and I don't have snow tires.

Getting stuck, or really losing control, is not a lot of fun, though.

I had fun about 2 weeks ago in a high school parking lot. It was a Friday night and it was snowy, so absolutely no one was around. Did donuts and stuff for like half an hour.

[r0tor]

Yes, I  have found RWD w/LSD (and no traction control especially) to be just far too unpredictable at anything above about 20 mph.

Yea, my RWD car with LSD has scared the complete shit out of me on more then 1 occasion mid corner while applying some gas.... thank you traction and stability control for saving me

[ChrisV]

FWIW, AWD/4WD does help braking and handling in the snow, all else being equal.

With all four wheels locked in unison, the tendency to lock or spin individual axles and/or wheels is blunted (as in the rears on a truck), which presents an even more uncontrollable situation. The value is very marginal, but in my experience, it does exist.

The worst possible combo is a RWD vehicle with an LSD. The best is AWD/4WD with snow tires. I have found FWD w/studs to be better than 4WD with all-seasons.

Studs only help on ice, not on snow, though the compacted snow with a little sand that the NW tends to end up with is a little more controllable with studs.

Out of all the vehicles I've had, the Baja bug with mud tires and the Rangie with the more serious tires have been the best in the white stuff.

[MX793]

Studs only help on ice, not on snow, though the compacted snow with a little sand that the NW tends to end up with is a little more controllable with studs.

Out of all the vehicles I've had, the Baja bug with mud tires and the Rangie with the more serious tires have been the best in the white stuff.

Studded tires also aren't legal everywhere, unfortunately.  Studs are illegal in Michigan and Minnesota (two states where they'd be really useful).

[the Teuton]

First, Subies rock in the winter. 

Second, BMW sold it's E36 Cold Weather package with an LSD up until 1997 or so.

Third, I'm not sure if open diffs are better or not.

[r0tor]

on an LSD if one wheel spins, by definition both are spinning.  Open diff you can have just 1 spinning.  You when you go around a turn, you can spin 1 tire without troubles... both tires spinning and your back end snaps around faster then you can imagine.

[MX793]

on an LSD if one wheel spins, by definition both are spinning.  Open diff you can have just 1 spinning.  You when you go around a turn, you can spin 1 tire without troubles... both tires spinning and your back end snaps around faster then you can imagine.

Trust me, if you are going around a corner and give it too much gas (or suddenly lift the throttle) with an open diff and break a wheel loose, the back end will still come around.  I pulled a 180 on a highway ramp because I applied some gas just as I hit a slick patch.  And breaking one wheel loose while going straight on a crowned road will cause the back end to step out sideways towards the ditch/curb with an open diff too.

[Rupert]

First, Subies rock in the winter. 

Second, BMW sold it's E36 Cold Weather package with an LSD up until 1997 or so.

Third, I'm not sure if open diffs are better or not.

Sure, but that's just because they get more traction while accelerating, and you can rally the crap out of them.

[GoCougs]

Trust me, if you are going around a corner and give it too much gas (or suddenly lift the throttle) with an open diff and break a wheel loose, the back end will still come around.  I pulled a 180 on a highway ramp because I applied some gas just as I hit a slick patch.  And breaking one wheel loose while going straight on a crowned road will cause the back end to step out sideways towards the ditch/curb with an open diff too.

An open diff will act as an LSD on a left hand turn owing to the vary nature of how a differential works. Right hand turn and an open diff will only spin the right also owing to the nature of how a differential works.

The danger of RWD and LSD in the snow has more to do with straight line travel. The tendency for the rear to float if not all together come about is unpredictable. At least on turns you know what to expect.

[GoCougs]

Studs only help on ice, not on snow, though the compacted snow with a little sand that the NW tends to end up with is a little more controllable with studs.

Out of all the vehicles I've had, the Baja bug with mud tires and the Rangie with the more serious tires have been the best in the white stuff.

In my experience studs definitely help in virgin snow, as after all the vehicle will be compacting snow as it goes about its business.

[MX793]

An open diff will act as an LSD on a left hand turn owing to the vary nature of how a differential works. Right hand turn and an open diff will only spin the right also owing to the nature of how a differential works.

An open differential will spin whichever wheel is easiest to break loose, typically the inside drive wheel (regardless of which direction you're cornering).  Jack up either drive wheel on an open diff, and the car will not move, it will just spin whichever wheel is up in the air.  It will not act like a limited slip when one wheel is jacked up but like an open diff if the other is the lifted wheel.

The turn I looped it on was a right-hander, BTW.  My car also did not favor left handers to right handers when doing donuts in the snow, as it would if the differential behaved differently depending on the direction the car was turning.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Wow, gocougs is hilarious

[2o6]

Two wheels spinning at the same speed will move you better in a straight line rather than one wheel spinning in an unequal fashion. (To the other)

Besides, most LSD's that aren't performance oriented are viscous........so there shouldn't be too much of an abrupt power shift.