Opel to partially split from GM.

[Galaxy]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29429127/site/14081545/for/cnbc/

It is not yet clear who will get how much of the company.

This was a requirement for Opel to get ?3.3 billion from the German government, since the German government feared the money would be siphoned off to north america.

One of the problems for GM is that if Opel goes under then GM Europe goes under which would mean that the Epsilon plattfom, among other things, is up for grabs. A company like Toyota could buy it, if only to kill of the Malibu and Co. Also the collapse of Opel would mean that GM's global operations would disappear with the exception of Holden and whats left of Daewoo.


It is being rumored that Daimler is interested in buying one Opel factory.

[nickdrinkwater]

This is big news.  What happens to Vauxhall?

[SVT666]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29429127/site/14081545/for/cnbc/

It is not yet clear who will get how much of the company.

This was a requirement for Opel to get ?3.3 billion from the German government, since the German government feared the money would be siphoned off to north america.

One of the problems for GM is that if Opel goes under then GM Europe goes under which would mean that the Epsilon plattfom, among other things, is up for graps. A company like Toyota could buy it, if only to kill of the Malibu and Co. Also the collapse of Opel would mean that GM's global operations would disappear with the exception of Holden and whats left of Daewoo.


It is being rumored that Daimler is interested in buying one Opel factory.

Toyota publicly stated last year that it is not in Toyota's best interest for GM to fall.  If you think about it, strong competition is a must.

[Galaxy]

This is big news.  What happens to Vauxhall?

If Opel survives then I assume the Vauxhall rebadges will to with the exception of the Holden sourced VXR.

[Galaxy]

Toyota publicly stated last year that it is not in Toyota's best interest for GM to fall.  If you think about it, strong competition is a must.

Well they obviously are concerned about joint suppliers (Audi and BMW recently had to bailout a supplier of cabrio roofs. It was either that or stop cabrio production) but I think that Toyota wanted to primarily avoid a public relations melt down. The average US Toyota buyer might not care about GM products but they would probably frown upon Toyota declaring that the biggest employer of the country should dissapear.


Besides someone other then Toyota might be interested in Epsilon.

[cozmik]

Epsilon isn't owned by Opel, it's owned by GM. And GM has offered it before. BMW was considering it for the 1 series at one point, but decided against it and opted to go RWD and shrink the 1 series platform. When Opel spins off, GM will still own Epsilon. Opel with have rights to use it for their current lineup, and since GM still plans on keeping a majority stake in Opel, Opel should continue to have access to all GM platforms and parts, should they desire them,

[Galaxy]

Epsilon isn't owned by Opel, it's owned by GM.

It is owned by neither. Epsilon is part of Swiss based GM Europe, which is GM's biggest chip in the game since almost everything developed by Opel and Saab is part of this subsidary. The only thing that really belongs to Opel are the factories, which are probably not worth that much. Basically Adam Opel GmbH has always been a paper incorporation these last few decades.

[Rich]

Epsilon isn't owned by Opel, it's owned by GM.

Epsilon is part of Swiss based GM Europe

The only thing that really belongs to Opel are the factories.... Basically Adam Opel GmbH has always been a paper incorporation these last few decades.

[Galaxy]

Well they do own two competent R&D centers, one in R?sselsheim, one in Mainz-Kastel, which going forward can help the company.

[Galaxy]

Opels's sales numbers for February will be interesting. The first two weeks of the month where, according to the company excellent for the Astra and the Corsa and Opels says that they have 60,000 orders for the Insignia. However the second part of the month was probably more difficult with every german news source talking Opel, Opel, Opel, Opel.

[cozmik]

Everything is frekking owned by GM right now. Do you really not get that? GM OWNS 100% of GM Europe, Adam Opel AG, and Saab Automobile AB. Everything, including the Epsilon platform is owned by GM, in Detroit. When the sell and or spin off Adam Opel, what Opel get's to take and what they doesn't is up to the execs in Detroit. Since it's still going to be majority owned by GM, it doesn't really matter, for the most part they'll continue as is, just will just have a little more independent freedom to use things other than GM stuff.

[Galaxy]

Everything is frekking owned by GM right now. Do you really not get that? GM OWNS 100% of GM Europe, Adam Opel AG, and Saab Automobile AB. Everything, including the Epsilon platform is owned by GM, in Detroit. When the sell and or spin off Adam Opel, what Opel get's to take and what they doesn't is up to the execs in Detroit. Since it's still going to be majority owned by GM, it doesn't really matter, for the most part they'll continue as is, just will just have a little more independent freedom to use things other than GM stuff.

You have just clearly shown that you do not know what a  legal person in the form of a limited company is.

I'll use VW AG as an example as their corporate structure is more clearly defined.

Obviously VW AG owns 100% of Audi AG and to an extend Audi has to do what their masters want. However VW can't just start grabbing stuff from Audi's part bins. Why? Because  Audi (as a limited company) is responsible for it's own debt and it would be a threat to creditors if the "Master" where to simply take stuff. That means that VW AG has to pay Audi AG for among other things the V6 TDI that it uses in the Touareg and Phaeton, although they do have the advantage that they will most likely get a price that is cheaper then they would pay in a general market. For the most part they do component swaps.

Let us assume for sake of argument that Audi AG where to go bankrupt and that Renault SAS buys the remains. Renault then becomes the owner of the V6 TDI, and since most contracts become void in a bankruptcy, VW AG would loose access to the technology of their former "slave" unless Renault decides to form a new contract with them.


The problem with GM/Opel is that they created a frakking mess by having everyone work on almost everything together. They most likely have lists that state that Opel has invested x man hours into project A and Holden y hours and GM proper z hours, so GM proper will pay Holden with y amounts of transmissions (just an example, I am not sure if they did that) and Opel x amounts. This is going to be a gold mine for  lawyers to figure out.



In an non limited company things are a different (as long as there is only a single owner) the Master has much more freedom to do with his property as he wants. Of course he is also liable for all of the debt.

[Galaxy]

Hmmm, the German Chancellor Angela Merkel said yesterday that Opel is "not a system relevant company." That does not mean that Opel wont get government funding, it just makes it less likely at the moment.

[cozmik]

You have just clearly shown that you do not know what a  legal person in the form of a limited company is.

I'll use VW AG as an example as their corporate structure is more clearly defined.

Obviously VW AG owns 100% of Audi AG and to an extend Audi has to do what their masters want. However VW can't just start grabbing stuff from Audi's part bins. Why? Because  Audi (as a limited company) is responsible for it's own debt and it would be a threat to creditors if the "Master" where to simply take stuff. That means that VW AG has to pay Audi AG for among other things the V6 TDI that it uses in the Touareg and Phaeton, although they do have the advantage that they will most likely get a price that is cheaper then they would pay in a general market. For the most part they do component swaps.

Let us assume for sake of argument that Audi AG where to go bankrupt and that Renault SAS buys the remains. Renault then becomes the owner of the V6 TDI, and since most contracts become void in a bankruptcy, VW AG would loose access to the technology of their former "slave" unless Renault decides to form a new contract with them.


The problem with GM/Opel is that they created a frakking mess by having everyone work on almost everything together. They most likely have lists that state that Opel has invested x man hours into project A and Holden y hours and GM proper z hours, so GM proper will pay Holden with y amounts of transmissions (just an example, I am not sure if they did that) and Opel x amounts. This is going to be a gold mine for  lawyers to figure out.



In an non limited company things are a different (as long as there is only a single owner) the Master has much more freedom to do with his property as he wants. Of course he is also liable for all of the debt.

Dude, Epsilon was Developed by GM as a whole, including the US operations. Even if you're legal advice there holds true (I don't know, don't care) unless you can show me that GM Europe holds the patents and trademarks for the Epsilon platform, your argument still holds no water. Just like the HF V6s were developed by GM globally. Hell the final year of development of the HF V6s was handled entirely be Saab. Does that mean when Saab breaks free from GM, Cadillac won't have any V6 engines now?