Checkpoints and legalities

[the Teuton]

So I finally was stopped at my first checkpoint last night, as a front-seat passenger.  I have no idea what PA state laws are on checkpoints, but I find them to be insipid.

From what I gathered from all of the other passengers in the car, in PA (unlike Ohio) all passengers have to be belted in even when the driver is over the age of 18.  I did not know this, but I was belted in anyway as the front passenger.

Also, I don't know if radar detectors are legal in PA, so we took it off the windshield before we got checked.  I don't see what they could do if it wasn't legal and we had it on the windshield.  I don't see why it would really even be illegal.  They're legal in Ohio.

Next, it just strikes me as particularly Gestapo-ish in that it's an arbitrary stop to make sure we're all sober.  There was (covered, non-visible, unopened) alcohol in the car, but if they had seen it, could they have done anything?  Also, what would happen if as a passenger over 21 I wasn't sober, but the 20-year-old driver was?  What was the need to have police on both sides of the car to question both of us and ask where we were coming from?  It was late and we all looked exhausted.  What if they had mistaken one of us for buzzed drunk?  Wouldn't that just be a bit of an invasion of privacy if we had to get out of the car and waste time with the fripperies of the process?

Last night was the last night of the month, but what was the point of the checkpoint on the road?

[dazzleman]

They were probably looking for drunks.

So you use a radar detector, Teuton?  Good man.  You're a badass after all.....

AFAIK, radar detectors are legal in every state except Virginia (and DC).  They used to be illegal in Connecticut, but that law was repealed a long time ago.

I don't know about the alcohol.  Laws vary by state.  I'd say it's possible you could have gotten in trouble if any of the passengers were under 21, but I'm not sure.  It's best to keep the alcohol in a place that nobody can get to while you're driving, if the car allows for that.  It keeps certain questions from being raised.

Would you believe that in all these years, I've never hit a checkpoint?  I think the best thing to do is just act natural, not as if you have something to hide.  Pretty much the same way you'd act if you got pulled over for a traffic violation.

[the Teuton]

I don't actually own a radar detector.  It was the driver's.

I have a 110 hp station wagon.  Getting up to supralegal speeds is hard enough.

As for the passengers, three of us were over 21 and the other three weren't.  That alcohol thing was a little bit of an issue I worried about a little bit more after the fact since it was buried, but that's a whole story for 'nother thread. 

[dazzleman]

I don't actually own a radar detector.  It was the driver's.

You're ruining your new badass image.....

Did you speed at all when you were doing the driving?

[Rupert]

Radar detectors are legal everywhere by VA, or they were five years ago.

I think checkpoints are bullshit, no matter when or where. As far as legality, if it's legal for you to be drunk, the driver is sober, or there's unopened booze in the car (and it's legal for you to carry booze), I don't see what they could do.

[Rupert]

He was passenging.

I was a passenger in a car that got stopped at a checkpoint once. It was on the Canadian side of the border (barely), and it was a single cop. Kind of hilarious, if you ask me.

[dazzleman]

Radar detectors are legal everywhere by VA, or they were five years ago.

I think checkpoints are bullshit, no matter when or where. As far as legality, if it's legal for you to be drunk, the driver is sober, or there's unopened booze in the car (and it's legal for you to carry booze), I don't see what they could do.

If you're underaged and drunk, it could be an issue, depending upon the state.  And if there's alcohol, even unopened, and there are underaged passengers, it may be an issue, depending upon the state.  I think it's better to stick the beer in the trunk or in some storage compartment, rather than have it in a passenger compartment.  Why look for trouble?  My rule is, one illegal thing at a time.  If I'm going to be speeding, I make sure everything else is in order.  I hate nasty surprises.

[the Teuton]

You're ruining your new badass image.....

Did you speed at all when you were doing the driving?

Not too often, but if it helps, when I go home, I usually come back on Sunday nights so I can take the turnpike all the way back at 80-85 mph (the speed limit is 65).  It's really all circumstantial.  The car is old and slow and Pittsburgh sucks as a driving city.  I speed much more often when I am home.

[the Teuton]

If you're underaged and drunk, it could be an issue, depending upon the state.  And if there's alcohol, even unopened, and there are underaged passengers, it may be an issue, depending upon the state.  I think it's better to stick the beer in the trunk or in some storage compartment, rather than have it in a passenger compartment.  Why look for trouble?  My rule is, one illegal thing at a time.  If I'm going to be speeding, I make sure everything else is in order.  I hate nasty surprises.

What about 12 handles of vodka?

[dazzleman]

Not too often, but if it helps, when I go home, I usually come back on Sunday nights so I can take the turnpike all the way back at 80-85 mph (the speed limit is 65).  It's really all circumstantial.  The car is old and slow and Pittsburgh sucks as a driving city.  I speed much more often when I am home.

Were you a passenger this whole trip, or did you help out with the driving?

The best time to drive is Sunday morning, early.  My last trip home from Boston, I left around 7 or 8 on Sunday morning, and had a great drive.  The only thing that slowed me down were the tollbooths on the Mass Pike.

[dazzleman]

What about 12 handles of vodka?

Same rule.  Don't have it available to passengers while you're driving, especially if some of them are underaged.  Why look for trouble?  Most trouble in life can be avoided if you're smart about things.

[Soup DeVille]

So I finally was stopped at my first checkpoint last night, as a front-seat passenger.  I have no idea what PA state laws are on checkpoints, but I find them to be insipid.

From what I gathered from all of the other passengers in the car, in PA (unlike Ohio) all passengers have to be belted in even when the driver is over the age of 18.  I did not know this, but I was belted in anyway as the front passenger.

Also, I don't know if radar detectors are legal in PA, so we took it off the windshield before we got checked.  I don't see what they could do if it wasn't legal and we had it on the windshield.  I don't see why it would really even be illegal.  They're legal in Ohio.

Next, it just strikes me as particularly Gestapo-ish in that it's an arbitrary stop to make sure we're all sober.  There was (covered, non-visible, unopened) alcohol in the car, but if they had seen it, could they have done anything?  Also, what would happen if as a passenger over 21 I wasn't sober, but the 20-year-old driver was?  What was the need to have police on both sides of the car to question both of us and ask where we were coming from?  It was late and we all looked exhausted.  What if they had mistaken one of us for buzzed drunk?  Wouldn't that just be a bit of an invasion of privacy if we had to get out of the car and waste time with the fripperies of the process?

Last night was the last night of the month, but what was the point of the checkpoint on the road?

It is particularly gestapo-ish. There's no question about that. There's also a pretty strong argument against the legality of such checkpoints, but unfortunately the courts don't agree.

That law-abiding citizens can be stopped and questioned without evidence or even reasonable suspiscion is quite simply ridiculous, but even then, you do have rights.

From reading up on PA law, your friends were wrong. Front seat passengers have to be buckeled only. Radar detectors are legal. The seat belt law is a "secondary enforcement law," and due to the special circumstances around arbitrary sobriety checkpoints, the officer may or may not be able to issue a ticket for that even if everyone was unbuckled.

In most cases in most states, the officer would be within the law to search your vehicle if there was an item within plain sight that made him suspect that other things might be hidden. ( an example would be a roach clip in an ashtray, that while legal in and of itself, may lead a reasonable person to assume that its was there for illegal purposes). Some officers may also do what's called a Terry search if they feel the need to have any of the occupants get out of the vehicle- that a cursory search for weapons within the reach of people when in the car (that is, pretty much everywhere but the trunk).

[the Teuton]

Were you a passenger this whole trip, or did you help out with the driving?

The best time to drive is Sunday morning, early.  My last trip home from Boston, I left around 7 or 8 on Sunday morning, and had a great drive.  The only thing that slowed me down were the tollbooths on the Mass Pike.

I drove a little in Albany, but I didn't do any of the highway driving.

I need to try that Sunday morning thing.

[dazzleman]

I drove a little in Albany, but I didn't do any of the highway driving.

I need to try that Sunday morning thing.

I stayed over a second night in Boston deliberately so I could do the Sunday morning drive.  I rarely get up and out early on Sunday morning, so it was a rare treat. 

I impose a limit on myself that I won't exceed no matter how empty the road is.  It's around 100 mph, but I generally stay below 90 mph.  If I ever blew a tire or something like that at those high speeds, I'm not sure how I'd handle it.  And if I get nailed, I don't want to be taken off in cuffs, rather than driving off with a ticket.

[2o6]

So I finally was stopped at my first checkpoint last night, as a front-seat passenger.  I have no idea what PA state laws are on checkpoints, but I find them to be insipid.

From what I gathered from all of the other passengers in the car, in PA (unlike Ohio) all passengers have to be belted in even when the driver is over the age of 18.  I did not know this, but I was belted in anyway as the front passenger.

Also, I don't know if radar detectors are legal in PA, so we took it off the windshield before we got checked.  I don't see what they could do if it wasn't legal and we had it on the windshield.  I don't see why it would really even be illegal.  They're legal in Ohio.

Next, it just strikes me as particularly Gestapo-ish in that it's an arbitrary stop to make sure we're all sober.  There was (covered, non-visible, unopened) alcohol in the car, but if they had seen it, could they have done anything?  Also, what would happen if as a passenger over 21 I wasn't sober, but the 20-year-old driver was?  What was the need to have police on both sides of the car to question both of us and ask where we were coming from?  It was late and we all looked exhausted.  What if they had mistaken one of us for buzzed drunk?  Wouldn't that just be a bit of an invasion of privacy if we had to get out of the car and waste time with the fripperies of the process?

Last night was the last night of the month, but what was the point of the checkpoint on the road?

They have those in ohio too........

[TurboDan]

Containers of alcohol, as long as they're unopened, are just fine in NJ.  I don't know the ramifications of having an unopened container if passengers are below 21, however.  That's why I like boats - it's perfectly legal to have one hand on the steering wheel and the other clutching your beer. 

I also do not like the idea of DUI checkpoints.  With the artifically low .08 limit these days, a lot of people who are perfectly capable of driving safely could get jammed up due to being over the number no matter how they were driving.  Personally, I'm all for enforcement of DUI laws, but an officer should have to witness the person driving in an unsafe manner before making a stop and investigating.  The whole notion of "checkpoints" seems like something out of the former Soviet Union.  Luckily, we have a good newspaper around here that diligently publishes every DUI checkpoint location every Friday.  Many of our local bars will post the location of the checkpoints as well in a highly visible area.

[Rupert]

If you're underaged and drunk, it could be an issue, depending upon the state.  And if there's alcohol, even unopened, and there are underaged passengers, it may be an issue, depending upon the state.  I think it's better to stick the beer in the trunk or in some storage compartment, rather than have it in a passenger compartment.  Why look for trouble?  My rule is, one illegal thing at a time.  If I'm going to be speeding, I make sure everything else is in order.  I hate nasty surprises.

Radar detectors are legal everywhere by VA, or they were five years ago.

I think checkpoints are bullshit, no matter when or where. As far as legality, if it's legal for you to be drunk, the driver is sober, or there's unopened booze in the car (and it's legal for you to carry booze), I don't see what they could do.

Go it covered.

I agree that it's best to put the booze in the trunk. I don't have a trunk half the time, so the front (only) seat is where it goes. But then, I can only ever carry two passengers max, anyway, so it's not like I ever look like an irresponsible party on wheels.

[GoCougs]

Two cops come up to the car? Wow, yer sensitive when it comes to LE. Big deal. Don't DUI and you won't have a problem.

The sad fact is that many, many people have little issue with DUI, and that is reflected IMO in the soft-glove approach by the those who write the laws. As such, those who enforce the laws have no choice to go mega proactive.

[the Teuton]

Two cops come up to the car? Wow, yer sensitive when it comes to LE. Big deal. Don't DUI and you won't have a problem.

The sad fact is that many, many people have little issue with DUI, and that is reflected IMO in the soft-glove approach by the those who write the laws. As such, those who enforce the laws have no choice to go mega proactive.

I just thought it was overkill and an invasion of privacy.

[TurboDan]

Here in the Peoples' Republik of NJ, we have a very interesting little law on the books called "Allowing DWI."  Basically, if you go to a bar and get drunk, then hand your keys over to someone who is also legally drunk, YOU can be charged with DWI even though you weren't even driving the vehicle.

It is VERY rarely enforced, but there is one town around me that does enforce it and gets convictions.  And I ain't sayin' there isn't but the best of motivations, but there was an article in the newspaper recently about that town getting a free "DWI patrol car" courtesy of an insurance company for their strict enforcement. 

http://www.jerseycriminallawyerblog.com/2008/09/articles/recent-dwi-criminal-law/you-can-be-charged-with-dwi-for-allowing-a-drunk-driver-to-drive-your-car/

[bing_oh]

I also do not like the idea of DUI checkpoints.  With the artifically low .08 limit these days, a lot of people who are perfectly capable of driving safely could get jammed up due to being over the number no matter how they were driving.  Personally, I'm all for enforcement of DUI laws, but an officer should have to witness the person driving in an unsafe manner before making a stop and investigating.  The whole notion of "checkpoints" seems like something out of the former Soviet Union.  Luckily, we have a good newspaper around here that diligently publishes every DUI checkpoint location every Friday.  Many of our local bars will post the location of the checkpoints as well in a highly visible area.

I see many people make comments about the "artifically low .08 limit." You can disagree with it if you like, but I'd like to just make an observation from an alcohol consumer's point of view. Part of learning how to detect drunks as a LEO is practicing on volunteer drunks. I've been a volunteer drunk several times for the purposes of training. When you volunteer, they get you as close to .08 as possible (as checked every 10 minutes or so on a breath test machine), so I know what I feel like when I'm a .08. Quite franky, there's no damn way in the world I'd drive at .08 (and, yes, I'm a drinker). It's not buzzed...the effects are very noticable.

Also, I'd like to ask you a question, Dan. You made the comment "...an officer should have to witness the person driving in an unsafe manner before making a stop and investigating." What about when I make a stop for, say, a non-moving violation and find that the driver is intoxicated? Should such a driver be let go because I didn't observe any driving that indicated impairment?

As for the newspaper thing, court rulings that dictate how DUI checkpoints are conducted (and, like them or not, there are VERY specific guidelines on conducting DUI checkpoints) require that locations be published. And, just FYI, there's also a requirement that checkpoints be posted and an "escape route" provided before the checkpoint for people who don't want to drive through them. So, technically, you don't have to go through a checkpoint if you don't want to.

[Tave]

I haven't seen a checkpoint in a long time. Our city started doing them for New Year's Eve a few years ago and abruptly stopped. Tempe PD conducts a sort of makeshift checkpoint on Mill Ave when it gets busy.

In Wyoming, it was legal for the passenger to carry an open container up until a short while ago, but the toughening national DUI standards put a stop to that. It was a little ridiculous, to be honest (although the country bars will still serve you drinks to-go).

[TurboDan]

I see many people make comments about the "artifically low .08 limit." You can disagree with it if you like, but I'd like to just make an observation from an alcohol consumer's point of view. Part of learning how to detect drunks as a LEO is practicing on volunteer drunks. I've been a volunteer drunk several times for the purposes of training. When you volunteer, they get you as close to .08 as possible (as checked every 10 minutes or so on a breath test machine), so I know what I feel like when I'm a .08. Quite franky, there's no damn way in the world I'd drive at .08 (and, yes, I'm a drinker). It's not buzzed...the effects are very noticable.

Also, I'd like to ask you a question, Dan. You made the comment "...an officer should have to witness the person driving in an unsafe manner before making a stop and investigating." What about when I make a stop for, say, a non-moving violation and find that the driver is intoxicated? Should such a driver be let go because I didn't observe any driving that indicated impairment?

As for the newspaper thing, court rulings that dictate how DUI checkpoints are conducted (and, like them or not, there are VERY specific guidelines on conducting DUI checkpoints) require that locations be published. And, just FYI, there's also a requirement that checkpoints be posted and an "escape route" provided before the checkpoint for people who don't want to drive through them. So, technically, you don't have to go through a checkpoint if you don't want to.

Good post.  I wish the public was actually more informed on legal limits.  There are so many times when you have a couple glasses of wine at a restaurant and wonder what would happen if you were pulled over for speeding, a burnt out light, etc.  Could a nice dinner turn into you being brought in cuffs to jail and put on trial for DUI - loss of license for 7 months, the whole deal?

As for the part about the stop for the non-moving violation leading to a DUI arrest.  Well, that's just bad luck on the part of the driver.  They absolutely shouldn't be let go.  Same as if they had a dead body in the back seat.  You were originally stopped for a perfectly valid reason.  In a checkpoint, you're essentially pulled over when there has been no evidence nor suspicion that you did anything wrong.  That's what I don't like about it.  I know the courts have upheld the practice, but I'm just not a fan of it in principle.  To date, I have never driven through one.

And while we're at it, I think we should add "volunteer drunk" to the ever-lengthening list of "cool things you get to do as a cop." 

[TurboDan]

This whole topic reminds me of a story I covered when I was a newspaper reporter.  One of my jobs was covering the town council meetings in two local towns.  In one of the towns, the police chief had to go to all the meetings and give a report (ironically to his brother, who was the mayor  ). 

On Memorial Day weekend last year, the department had the county DUI team in and they performed a checkpoint.  They set up on a main road which connects to the highway out of town from 11 p.m. to 3 a.m. and didn't nab one single drunk the whole time.  I wasn't there to write the story about that, but it caught my ear and I called the chief the next day to ask his opinion on why nobody seemed to be driving drunk.

He said that due to the increased penalties and all the "Over the Limit, Under Arrest" commercials on TV, the number of DUIs in general has drastically decreased over the past decade or so.  He said that the state and/or county will come in and give them the money for overtime to perform the checkpoint, so they'll do it, but it usually turns out to be giving tickets for expired registration and inspection stickers all night.

[r0tor]

they do them all the time near the end of the month near my house on the one of the roads that lead out of the bar scene... its all about the quotas

Priority 1 is seeing if they can nab someone for DUI.  If you have even a whisp of alcohol on your breathe be prepared to leave you car and make an ass out of yourself.

Priority 2 is checking for seatbelts.... and easy to catch ticket money

Priority 3 is then they will check your registration, licence, headlights, tailights, insurance, and PA car inspection to see if they can get some money out of you.


One night i was a DD, didn't drink at all but had some beer spilled on me and I was f'in harassed to no end at a checkpoint....

  First its "where did you come from?"
I smell like bar so obviously i answer "The bar"
"How much did you drink?"
"Nothing"
"I smell beer on your breathe and your pupils are dilated... please step out of the car"
"Its 3am, I'm tired, my contacts are dry, and I was the DD.  I have beer spilled on my shirt"
"GET OUT OF THE CAR NOW!!!"
"Fine..."

The douchebag makes me walk the line with some really stupid ass orders.  Makes me stand on one foot and count to 30.  yadda yadda yadda while other people in cars were honking their horn and laughing at me.  AND THATS THE SECOND TIME IT HAPPENED LIKE THAT 

if i could have legally beaten the piss out of officer douchebag, I would have

[the Teuton]

they do them all the time near the end of the month near my house on the one of the roads that lead out of the bar scene... its all about the quotas

Priority 1 is seeing if they can nab someone for DUI.  If you have even a whisp of alcohol on your breathe be prepared to leave you car and make an ass out of yourself.

Priority 2 is checking for seatbelts.... and easy to catch ticket money

Priority 3 is then they will check your registration, licence, headlights, tailights, insurance, and PA car inspection to see if they can get some money out of you.

So checkpoints are just money makers and nothing more, really?

Oh yeah, this happened pretty much right over by where you live.

[TurboDan]

At least they cleverly disguise it as a DUI checkpoint near you.  Around here, they actually will have "registration and seat belt checkpoints" and hand out tickets to people.  They'll usually pick a Saturday when traffic gets clogged up near a local bridge, send a bunch of officers out there and have them walk on foot from car to car looking for violations.  They'll also set a red light to stay red longer and check all the cars waiting for it to turn green.  If there's anything wrong with your car, you're instructed to pull into a parking lot and wait for your ticket.  This is the same department that illegally took down all the 35MPH county speed limit signs and put their own 25MPH signs up so they could write more tickets - a decision someone finally challenged and won.

And then they wonder why there's bad blood between their department and the local citizens. 

[IrishGuy]

The best thing at checkpoints is to be truthful (at least that's how I feel).

I remember one night after I had a couple of beers at a bar, I was about maybe 10 mins or so from my house when I saw the signs / flashing lights of a DUI/DWI checkpoint.

I didn't have much time to think about what to do because there was only one other car in line and he just finished up. So, the LEO comes to my window and asks if I had anything to drink. I decided I might as well be honest seeing as how they're trained to pick up on even the slightest hint of beer.

So, I took my chances and I told him I had 2 beers at a local pool hall. His response? "OK, you're all set, have a good evening."

Now, had I told him I had nothing to drink it would have given him even more of a reason to question me further.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm the type that feels if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about. Just answer their questions and go enjoy your day.

*Please don't read this post as if I agree to all of the enforcement techniques police departments use (i.e. speed traps). There's a big difference between DUI / DWI and "speeding."

[Tave]

I've had similar run-ins with Johnny Law, and I agree that it pays to be truthfull.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I've had similar run-ins with Johnny Law, and I agree that it pays to be truthfull.

Unless they think you're lying, anyway.