Teuton's analysis of the auto show

[the Teuton]

So I just got back from the Cleveland auto show, a usually huge show with a great turnout and lots of fun.  It was still great fun, but this was the first year out of the 8 that I have been going to it where I didn't have to wait in line to get in the show.  The highway was empty.  It was sad.

Getting in the show, you could tell that there were less cars there.  Space was more abundant between cars, and some of the attractions like the Jeep and Toyota off-road courses were just missing.  Usual marques like Bentley and Aston Martin were missing (there's a Bentley and Aston dealer in Cleveland), and some of the other marques just had less, like Porsche.

So here's my rundown of the highs and lows of the event by manufacturer.

BMW Group:  They did not have an X5, 6er, or 7er at the show, but rather two X6s.  Also, no Z4, and only one M car (an M3).  I expected more, like it was in the past.  But I do have to say that like a lot of the cars better than I remembered leaving them in August.  Also, I want a 1er, the 3er cabrio is gorgeous, and the X3 is still rubbish.  The Minis rocked, as usual.

Chrysler:  They didn't have much in the way of new products, but I didn't find any nearly as unbearable as I thought I would.  The SRT-4 had a really cheap interior, but it wasn't the worst of the show, and it had a rather pleasant shifter.  The Challenger had some cheap bits, but the car has style and presence.  I liked it.  The Rambox cuts into way too much bed space, but it's a neat idea.  It will make a great Titan when Chrysler goes out of business.

GM:  The ZR1 is amazing, and I officially want a CTS-V.  The Cadillac range is generally good, and the trucks and larger SUVs are good.  I was impressed by the Enclave.  But the rest of the cars in that lineup are trash.  The G8 felt cheap (reaffirming Hemi's notion), the Camaro's interior looked plain was was so disappointingly cheap, ugly, non-functional, and downright offensive that it turned me off to the car.  The Mustang and Challenger are much better.  The Kappas have no discernible benefit over the MX-5, and to be honest, a CTS-V without sport seats is downright useless (but oh that car!  How I want it!  Give me Recaros!).  GM needs to put "oh shit" handles in their cars, and I don't see why they don't.  Their cars lack in the details, and I was really disappointed by most of them.  GM deserves to go under with such a lack of effort.  My dad asked where the Volt was, and the people on the floor told him off the record that GM would rather focus on moving inventory right now, so they didn't send one.  GM = Fail.

Honda:  The Fit is too good of a car to be a basic mode of transport, but not good enough to justify a $19k price tag.  The Insight looks like it has a lot of promise.  The Accord is way too big for me to care about it anymore.  The car is just massive.

Hyundai/Kia:  The Genesis sedan is a great car.  But I liked the Nissan Maxima and Cadillac CTS better.  It's a bargain for what it is, but there are some cheap bits.  A $60k car it is not in neither price nor substance.  It is priced where it deserves to be.  The Coupe...drool.  They had a 3.8 V6 Track there that I fell in love with.  The shifter isn't BMW-precise, but it's good, and the interior isn't perfect, but got $27k, I'm not going to complain.  It's such a better car than a Camaro in every tactile way that it isn't even funny.  As for the rest of the Hyundais, color me impressed.  As for Kia, oh hot damn...the Soul is a really good product for the money.  At $14.5k, it comes with power darn-near everything, it's spacious, and it just feel right.  It's ugly as hell, but it's a great value.

Jag:  I really like the XF.  If that big aluminum strip on the dash was wood, it'd be perfect.  As it is, the seats are better than the Germ's, and the quality is more apparent, too.  I think I have a new favorite $60k lux sedan.

Nissan:  It's pronounced "Chrome."  There's a long O sound over the O.  That being said, the Krom as well as the rest of the Cube line have promise.  I really like them a lot, and I can see myself owning one someday.  It's a charming, little car.  The Maxima got its groove back.  It feels perfect for a big sedan and it looks great, too, the Z looks smaller and tighter but largely the same as the outgoing model, and the GT-R...I got evil looks from the presenter on the car because I was telling my dad everything in her spiel before she said it.  Lastly, the $10k Versa...give it a stereo (and possibly an auto box) and my dad would be on it like fat girls to chocolate.  He found the idea of a real basic car appealing.  It was a good value for the money.  Unfortunately, Nissan via some people with big mouths has announced they are pulling Infiniti and Nissan out of the auto show circuit next season.   

Ford:  I like Ford more than GM for the first time in my life.  I live in a GM family, and I have to say their cars just seem better.  The Mustang's shifter is too balky and imprecise, but the car felt just better than the Camaro to me in every way.  The new Taurus is the r0xx0r, and they had the SHO there.  It looked good.  The old one isn't even that bad.  And to be honest, Lincoln has stepped up its game.  Color me impressed with the MKS.  I couldn't find fault in this overpriced Taurus, to be honest.

Subaru:  To all of you about the Legacy:  You win.  The car is too small to be useful.  The Impreza is almost as big, and it's definitely as functional, if not more so.  The Forester is a bit generic, but it's lovable, and they Impreza is just a decently good car.  It's not flashy, but as an owner of the first car, I do have to say it's a pleasant natural progression.  As for the STI, drop the price $3-4k, and the car is completely justifiable.  It's just a really cool car.

Mitsubishi:  All of the cars are lackluster except one.  That being said, if I didn't have a natural disgust for the company, I would totally rock an Evo.  It's just really cool, cheap-ass interior and all.

Mercedes-Benz:  The C63 AMG...it just feels right, sans one thing:  I am not fat by any stretch, but I have a wide, stocky frame.  The sport seats in the C63 are way too narrow to the point that they make the Evo's seem like La-Z-Boys.  The CTS-V's had no bolstering on the standard seats, and the C63's had way too much.  Chalk one up for the M3's for having a just about perfect compromise.

Saab:  Really.  Comfortable.  Seats.

VAG/Porsche:  Doppelkupplungsgetriebe.  My dad wondered why in the hell I knew that word.  Other people looked at me funny when I was explaining how it worked.  It certainly does jack up the prices of these cars, though.  These were the most expensive lot of Porsches I have ever seen.  Also, no Cayenne to be seen.  The Passat CC looks gorgeous, and the R8...drool, as well.  It's like a German Ford GT.

Toyota:  Appliance-like, some interesting cars, but nothing noteworthy really.  I find myself in love with the $73k Land Cruiser, though.  The Denali has a better set of seats in both of first two rows, but the gadgetry just intrigues me to no end.


...I'll post more if I think of more.  Overall, though, this was by far the smallest, most depressing-looking Cleveland show I've ever attended.  I still had a ton of fun, though.

[the Teuton]

Maserati:  They were down from their usual 4 cars to just 2, but they were great as usual.  The Gran Turismo is awesome in person, and the Quattroporte...it's the same car it's always been.

Mazda:  The NC is my car of choice.  The 6 is too big for me to care about it anymore, and the 3 is too expensive for me to care about it, either.

[Eye of the Tiger]

That us sad. You shoul come to NGIAS, and with any luck all the cool cars willbe there.

[dazzleman]

I'm not surprised that the show was more low-key than usual, under the circumstances.

GM is going under.  They don't seem to have the will to survive.

Nothing about Saab but comfortable seats?

Was Volvo there?

[Secret Chimp]

Ford has some good heads in design and engineering. They've really turned around their USDM products over the last decade (with the exception of the Freestar, but eh).

[sportyaccordy]

Good analysis of the show man. Felt like I was there. Lookin forward to the NYIAS

[the Teuton]

I'm not surprised that the show was more low-key than usual, under the circumstances.

It was kinda depressing in that sense.  It meant there was less of a wait to the Camaros and CTS-V for me, but it also meant a little less of that vibe that makes the show always seem like a big deal.

GM os going under.  They don't seem to have the will to survive.

How could you just not bring your most important car to the event?  They had a new LaCrosse that looked promising, but GM should find a way to screw that one up, too.  But no Volt!

GM isn't going to survive by discounting Aveos to compete with the $10k Versa.  With such a lackluster effort, they deserve to go under.  They really do.

Nothing about Saab but comfortable seats?

I really liked the 9-3 cabrio, and if I were in the market, it'd be down between the 3er and the 9-3 for my cabrio dollar, but the car is largely carryover.  There was nothing too exciting there, to be honest.  And they still were peddling 9-7Xs.

Was Volvo there?

Yes, but my dad and I did not go to check them out really.  Same with Lexus.  I think those were the only two brands we really skimmed over.  That being said, I'd still gladly take a C30 for myself.
[/quote]

[MX793]

Teuts, what is your opinion of Mustang vs Genesis coupe interior-wise?  Seat comfort, perceived material quality, fit & finish, other remarks?

[Colonel Cadillac]

Speaking of GM going under, I really hope Europeans buy Cadillac (and GM package the Corvette with Cadillac...).

[Galaxy]

I really hope Europeans buy Cadillac (and GM package the Corvette with Cadillac...).

You should consider hiring Blackwater for personal security to protect yourself from your fellow country man.   

[Galaxy]

Actually bad advice. Blackwater is mostly american. I hear that former Mossad agents are for rent.

[Soup DeVille]

Actually bad advice. Blackwater is mostly american. I hear that former Mossad agents are for rent.

Blackwater no longer exists. The new comapny is called Xe.

[Galaxy]

Blackwater no longer exists. The new comapny is called Xe.

Xe?  Like the symbol for  Xenon? 

[Soup DeVille]

Xe?  As in Xenon? 

Hell if I know what it means. When Blackwater lost the Iraq contract, they folded and reorganized and now themselves Xe.

[the Teuton]

Teuts, what is your opinion of Mustang vs Genesis coupe interior-wise?  Seat comfort, perceived material quality, fit & finish, other remarks?

The 2010s weren't open the the public, so most of my experience with the Mustang comes from a $53k 2009 GT500 convertible they had.  I know a lot of that price comes from the Shelby name, so I tried to ignore that, seeing as how the car was 90% the same.

So here's my take:

Seat comfort:  The Mustang's seats were wider, more comfortable, to be honest, and they didn't feel that bad.  The leather was not slick enough to make me feel like I was going to slide around, and there was enough bolstering to make them feel sporty.  The Hyundai's were narrower, more bolstered, but not narrow enough to be offensive like the C63's.  I felt completely comfortable in them.  They felt a little sportier than the Mustang's.

Space:  The Mustang is geared towards housing big American people up front.  There is plenty of wiggle room.  The back seat is next to impossible to use.  You'd have to be an amputee to sit back there.  The Genesis was narrower-feeling, but it didn't feel constricting by any means.  Also, the back seat looked far more user-friendly.  Think G35/37.

Material quality:  The faux aluminum on the Hyundai's dash looks and feels cheap.  Luckily, there isn't much of it.  The rest of the interior looks great, but the feel isn't there on all of the materials.  It's a mixed bag.  For dash strokers, it beats the Mustang by the smallest of margins.  The Hyundai's design is very G35-ish, but it does feel cheaper than the Infiniti.  The Mustang's interior looks better, and the materials all look the same quality and have the same sheen, even though some are better quality than others.  It does not look like crap at all.  Neither are perfect, but both are livable.  I'd venture to guess the new Mustang is largely the same material-wise, but if it is an upgrade, its materials will be better than the Hyundai's.

Steering wheel:  The Genesis has a smaller wheel.  I like smaller steering wheels.  That Cobra on the Mustang's wheel looks really badass, though.

Shifter:  The Hyundai's is light and a little vague, but easy to get in gear.  It's decent, but not perfect.  The Mustang's is heavy and it takes much more effort, but it feels like it begs you to rip through the gears like a classic muscle car.  They're two completely different takes on the DIY transmission.

Presence:  Going off what the new Mustang looks like, I think it has far more presence than the Genesis.  The Genesis looks vaguely like the Tiburon, and it's a clean design including that weird window, but it's not going to get you noticed like the Mustang.  I'm not sure which I'd pick if I had to buy; probably the Genesis by a hair.  I have to see how they drive.

[the Teuton]

I forgot something.

This:



= Pure win.

[MX793]

The 2010s weren't open the the public, so most of my experience with the Mustang comes from a $53k 2009 GT500 convertible they had.  I know a lot of that price comes from the Shelby name, so I tried to ignore that, seeing as how the car was 90% the same.

So here's my take:

Seat comfort:  The Mustang's seats were wider, more comfortable, to be honest, and they didn't feel that bad.  The leather was not slick enough to make me feel like I was going to slide around, and there was enough bolstering to make them feel sporty.  The Hyundai's were narrower, more bolstered, but not narrow enough to be offensive like the C63's.  I felt completely comfortable in them.  They felt a little sportier than the Mustang's.

Space:  The Mustang is geared towards housing big American people up front.  There is plenty of wiggle room.  The back seat is next to impossible to use.  You'd have to be an amputee to sit back there.  The Genesis was narrower-feeling, but it didn't feel constricting by any means.  Also, the back seat looked far more user-friendly.  Think G35/37.

Material quality:  The faux aluminum on the Hyundai's dash looks and feels cheap.  Luckily, there isn't much of it.  The rest of the interior looks great, but the feel isn't there on all of the materials.  It's a mixed bag.  For dash strokers, it beats the Mustang by the smallest of margins.  The Hyundai's design is very G35-ish, but it does feel cheaper than the Infiniti.  The Mustang's interior looks better, and the materials all look the same quality and have the same sheen, even though some are better quality than others.  It does not look like crap at all.  Neither are perfect, but both are livable.  I'd venture to guess the new Mustang is largely the same material-wise, but if it is an upgrade, its materials will be better than the Hyundai's.

Steering wheel:  The Genesis has a smaller wheel.  I like smaller steering wheels.  That Cobra on the Mustang's wheel looks really badass, though.

Shifter:  The Hyundai's is light and a little vague, but easy to get in gear.  It's decent, but not perfect.  The Mustang's is heavy and it takes much more effort, but it feels like it begs you to rip through the gears like a classic muscle car.  They're two completely different takes on the DIY transmission.

Presence:  Going off what the new Mustang looks like, I think it has far more presence than the Genesis.  The Genesis looks vaguely like the Tiburon, and it's a clean design including that weird window, but it's not going to get you noticed like the Mustang.  I'm not sure which I'd pick if I had to buy; probably the Genesis by a hair.  I have to see how they drive.

I was a bit more interested in impressions of the '10 interior (it's supposed to be a noticeable step up from the '05-'09s), but a good input on the cars none-the-less.  The GT500s get different seats from the standard Mustangs with more side bolstering (and I think they get alcantara [sp?] for added grip), so if the GT500 seats were merely on par, then the standard seats are probably going to be less satisfying.  I'm a thin guy, so I actually prefer a narrow seat with a good amount of bolstering.

[the Teuton]

The car wasn't open, as I said, but the materials should be better than the Hyundai's by a smidgen.  And the design is definitely more inspired than the kinda copycat Genesis.

If you're thinner the Hyundai's seats are for you all the way.

[Colin]

Speaking of GM going under, I really hope Europeans buy Cadillac (and GM package the Corvette with Cadillac...).

Some chance.............. apparently, Cadillac sold precisely 2 cars in the UK in January.

The BLS just does not sell (it's based on the dated old SAAB 9.3, so whether you think the name stands for "Better Looking SAAB" or not, it is hampered before it even gets out of the showroom).

The latest CTS may well be quite a decent car, but badge snobbery in Europe just won't touch it like they struggle to touch anything other than the German triumvirate............... and having given the CTS-V the once over at Geneva, I have to say that it is just too brash to appeal to the sort of person who buys an S6 (me!), an M5, or XF SV8.......... in the UK, it is hampered as it is not sold in RHD, either.

The Escalade had its day as a Bling Bling mobile for Premiership footballers and their WAGs.

[2o6]

Sometimes, I think Cadillac should stop catering to the Europeans and just be Cadillac. It seems like Europeans liked Cadillac when they were the classic American luxury car. Floaty, well-built, and a huge engine that was totally silent.



Personally I think Cadillac should do like Jaguar, and not like MB or BMW (and Audi). Just one or two "sport luxury" models, but the rest pure Cadillac. That's why In a way, I'm kinda sad that the DTS and STS are being combined and switched to RWD. (DTS)

[SVT666]

The 2010s weren't open the the public, so most of my experience with the Mustang comes from a $53k 2009 GT500 convertible they had.  I know a lot of that price comes from the Shelby name, so I tried to ignore that, seeing as how the car was 90% the same.

So here's my take:

Seat comfort:  The Mustang's seats were wider, more comfortable, to be honest, and they didn't feel that bad.  The leather was not slick enough to make me feel like I was going to slide around, and there was enough bolstering to make them feel sporty.  The Hyundai's were narrower, more bolstered, but not narrow enough to be offensive like the C63's.  I felt completely comfortable in them.  They felt a little sportier than the Mustang's.

The Genesis Coupe has much nicer seats then the Mustang GT.  The GT500 gets Recaros.

Space:  The Mustang is geared towards housing big American people up front.  There is plenty of wiggle room.  The back seat is next to impossible to use.  You'd have to be an amputee to sit back there.  The Genesis was narrower-feeling, but it didn't feel constricting by any means.  Also, the back seat looked far more user-friendly.  Think G35/37.

I don't know if I could agree with you, though I am much taller then you, but the backseat of the Hyundai was just as unusable as the Mustangs.

Material quality:  The faux aluminum on the Hyundai's dash looks and feels cheap.  Luckily, there isn't much of it.  The rest of the interior looks great, but the feel isn't there on all of the materials.  It's a mixed bag.  For dash strokers, it beats the Mustang by the smallest of margins.  The Hyundai's design is very G35-ish, but it does feel cheaper than the Infiniti.  The Mustang's interior looks better, and the materials all look the same quality and have the same sheen, even though some are better quality than others.  It does not look like crap at all.  Neither are perfect, but both are livable.  I'd venture to guess the new Mustang is largely the same material-wise, but if it is an upgrade, its materials will be better than the Hyundai's.

The 2010 Mustang interior is a huge improvement over the '09.  I think the Hyundai's interior is of much higher quality then the current Mustang and probably on par with the 2010.

Steering wheel:  The Genesis has a smaller wheel.  I like smaller steering wheels.  That Cobra on the Mustang's wheel looks really badass, though.

I can't disagree here.

Shifter:  The Hyundai's is light and a little vague, but easy to get in gear.  It's decent, but not perfect.  The Mustang's is heavy and it takes much more effort, but it feels like it begs you to rip through the gears like a classic muscle car.  They're two completely different takes on the DIY transmission.

The Hyundai's shifter is almost too light, but the Mustang's could be a 6 speed as well (though the GT500 you were in is a 6 speed).

Presence:  Going off what the new Mustang looks like, I think it has far more presence than the Genesis.  The Genesis looks vaguely like the Tiburon, and it's a clean design including that weird window, but it's not going to get you noticed like the Mustang. 

The Mustang wins this hands down.  From the A-pillar back the Hyundai is almost generic, and very Tiburon-like.  The Mustang is all style.

I'm not sure which I'd pick if I had to buy; probably the Genesis by a hair.  I have to see how they drive.

It's a tough choice for sure, but the Mustang wins on looks, tunability, and a category I like to call, "Badass Factor".

[Nethead]

Good analysis of the show man. Felt like I was there. Lookin forward to the NYIAS

Excellent review by the TeutDude, and the Nethead here would attend/not attend any auto show based on the TeutDude's recommendation/recommendation not.

[the Teuton]

Excellent review by the TeutDude, and the Nethead here would attend/not attend any auto show based on the TeutDude's recommendation/recommendation not.

Thanks, Nethead and Sporty.  Seeing Bimmer's post about Geneva, it doesn't look like they're having any problems getting people through the doors across the pond.  But I'd venture to guess all of the US shows will be crappier than they have been in the past.  NY and LA might be the only two worth a darn next season.

[Vinsanity]

I was a bit more interested in impressions of the '10 interior (it's supposed to be a noticeable step up from the '05-'09s), but a good input on the cars none-the-less.  The GT500s get different seats from the standard Mustangs with more side bolstering (and I think they get alcantara [sp?] for added grip), so if the GT500 seats were merely on par, then the standard seats are probably going to be less satisfying.  I'm a thin guy, so I actually prefer a narrow seat with a good amount of bolstering.

Two 2010 Mustangs were open to the public at the LA Auto Show, and I was quite impressed with what I saw. One was a V6 hardtop with the premium package, and although a pricey option, does provide a very upscale yet retro-trendy environment inside the car. The other was a convertible that I don't think had the premium package, was was still nicely sorted; perfect interior for someone who refuses to subject themselves to a rattletrap, but doesn't care for fancy trim materials or color schemes.

The only thing, though is that there were no GenCoupes there at the time for me to compare it to. I'd say the Mustang with the premium package is comparable to the 370Z's interior.

[Galaxy]

Some chance.............. apparently, Cadillac sold precisely 2 cars in the UK in January.

The BLS just does not sell (it's based on the dated old SAAB 9.3, so whether you think the name stands for "Better Looking SAAB" or not, it is hampered before it even gets out of the showroom).

The latest CTS may well be quite a decent car, but badge snobbery in Europe just won't touch it like they struggle to touch anything other than the German triumvirate............... and having given the CTS-V the once over at Geneva, I have to say that it is just too brash to appeal to the sort of person who buys an S6 (me!), an M5, or XF SV8.......... in the UK, it is hampered as it is not sold in RHD, either.

The Escalade had its day as a Bling Bling mobile for Premiership footballers and their WAGs.

And I thought the 10 they sold in January in Germany was bad.....

I think Cadillac actually would have potential under the wings of PSA or Renault. They have no real luxury brand (I know Renault has Infiniti, but thats mostly a US niche brand) and they could give some -internatinal- life to Cadillac.

I still believe that one of the largest mistakes GM made regarding Caddy in Europe was the almost complete lack of advertisments. The only marketing they had was in Auto magazines, which seems kind of pointless since most readers of said magazines knows about Caddy anyways. It is the general public that does not. Imo they should, since the budget for TV adds was obviously not there, focused on magazines catering to the educated affluent population. Architectural magazines and the likes of National Geographic etc.

Just my two ?.

[Colin]

Re the 2010 Mustangs........ I had a good poke around them at the LA Show, too....... the new interior is a massive step forward in quality and perceived quality (both count!) compared to the rather low rent effort in the current cars. Funnily enough, the rental car I got in Phoenix just a couple of days after visiting the show was a 2008 Mustang Convertible. Although it's far from the last word in finesse, I actually rather enjoyed it, and felt that the Convertible was better than the Coupe I had sampled in early 2007......... although the engine did not growl like the Shelby GT-H one I had once, it made a nice enough noise and had enough urge for the sort of motoring I was doing. With a new interior, I think the 'Stang should continue to do well as it does feel that bit special yet it is eminently affordable.

Back on the Cadillac saga.............. interesting idea about partnering with the French. Outside France, their big cars just do not sell, either (there was a memorable test in "Auto Plus" who rated the Renault Safrane as better than the Jaguar "S" Type once. Xenophobia still rules in France!)  ....... and the Laguna 3 has bombed so badly that the latest news is that Renault will not replace it. They are also not going to replace the Espace. They do have a partnership with Samsung, and that has given us the Koleos, though the latest insight I have is that only 9 months after it went on sale in the UK, it has been quietly withdrawn from the market! Cadillac may just be pushing water uphill with their cars in Europe, as the sort of attributes that they have and which go down well with the US buyers don't really translate into likely volume sales in Europe at all. The very limited number of dealers does not help, either....... when the Holden Monaro and now Commodore was imported, it was branded a Vauxhall and sold through far more of the regular dealers. Even that is a slow seller, as although it is a bargain, it is "still only a Vauxhall" in the eyes of to many people. 

Infiniti are going to launch in Europe in 2009, selling the G37 sedan and coupe, and the EX and FX SUVs. I think they could do pretty well, as the cars are damn good, and they may just appeal to those who do not want a BMW, Merc or Audi, but want true "premium" that is not SSAB or Volvo, or even Lexus, let alone oddballs like the Honda Legend. 

[the Teuton]

Getting rid of the Espace?  Renault is abandoning the segment it created (in Europe).

[Madman]

I forgot something.

This:



= Pure win.

You want a truck with wheelie bars and a stripper pole?



Cheers,
Madman of the People

[MX793]

You want a truck with wheelie bars and a stripper pole?



Cheers,
Madman of the People

It's a portable strip joint!  And that's not a wheelie bar, it's a step to help the dancers get up onto the stage.

[the Teuton]

It's a portable strip joint!  And that's not a wheelie bar, it's a step to help the dancers get up onto the stage.

You can't have extra guys lifting the girls onto the stage all the time.