The never ending debate

[S204STi]

how about the bugatti engine then...

Didn't think of that.  But having 4 turbos seems to help.

I was just waiting for some 'tard to say "wut abowt teh supra!?" in which case I'd say No, not streetable power if you have a snail so big it could swallow whole children.  I like my power to come on when I depress the Go pedal, not sit there waiting for 15 seconds for the turbo to wake up.

[GoCougs]

How about an N/A engine making more power than that for only $13k?

http://www.jegs.com/p/Edelbrock/Edelbrock-Pat-Musi-555ci-650HP-Carbureted-Engine/887183/10002/-1

Except with the S/C 5.4L you're getting a warrantable engine designed to last 100,000+ miles. That engine is neither.

That engine also doesn't have fuel injection, distributorless ignition, or an aluminmum block.

(Read: the price comparison is incongruent.)

[Cobra93]

Except with the S/C 5.4L you're getting a warrantable engine designed to last 100,000+ miles. That engine is neither.

*Ahem*  "After detailed assembly and dyno testing, you can rest assured that each motor was constructed by hand with the utmost quality and care by Pat Musi, applying 37+ years of big block Chevy experience. 2 year/unlimited mileage warranty."

[GoCougs]

*Ahem*  "After detailed assembly and dyno testing, you can rest assured that each motor was constructed by hand with the utmost quality and care by Pat Musi, applying 37+ years of big block Chevy experience. 2 year/unlimited mileage warranty."

But it was not designed to last 100,000+ miles as was the S/C 5.4L.

[hotrodalex]

But it was not designed to last 100,000+ miles as was the S/C 5.4L.

You didn't build it, so what you say it's designed to last for doesn't matter.

My El Camino's new crate engine better last 100,000 miles. That's why I bought it.

[GoCougs]

You didn't build it, so what you say it's designed to last for doesn't matter.

My El Camino's new crate engine better last 100,000 miles. That's why I bought it.

No, I didn't build it but I can guarantee that that Dart did not invest $250MM+ of engineering (as did Ford and the Modular) into that custom block, and crank and rod set, so yes what I say does matter.

If your crate engine is a stock virgin two-bolt block or a mildly-built virgin four-bolt block and otherwise wasn't screwed up, 100k is realistic; anything else, it ranges from probably not (moderately-built 0.030" over seasoned four-bolt block) to not a chance (strongly-built 0.060" over seasoned two-bolt block).

[omicron]

I think Soup would enjoy this thread, were he not picking grapes or whatever it is that he's off doing.

[hounddog]

But in terms of new engine families, i.e., that which the automakers have invested in recently, only two have been pushrod (Hemi an LSx); all others have been OHC.

If you are saying that automakers are not investing in OHV engines save for the hemi and LS line, then I have serious doubts that GM decided to put a couple V6 OHV engines into a brand new car without any real investments into the designs to make them more competative with OHC engines.  That would make zero business sense. 

(then again, we are talking about GM )

And, you will have to provide proof for any arguments to the contrary as common sense would dispute your above claims.

[GoCougs]

If you are saying that automakers are not investing in OHV engines save for the hemi and LS line, then I have serious doubts that GM decided to put a couple V6 OHV engines into a brand new car without any real investments into the designs to make them more competative with OHC engines.  That would make zero business sense.  

(then again, we are talking about GM )

And, you will have to provide proof for any arguments to the contrary as common sense would dispute your above claims.

The 3.5L and 3.9L "High Value" V6 is of the same pushrod 60-deg V6 family as the 2.8L, 3.1L and 3.4L of the '80s and '90s, so I think it very debatable that it be considered all-new as can be the LSx and Hemi.

Further, GM has already stated (and shown) that the engine is being replaced by the "High Feature" 3.6L V6. The engine will essentially come and go with the current generation Impala and Pontiac. It may hang around in a legacy fashion as the base engine on a few cars, but that'll be about it.

[Cobra93]

No, I didn't build it but I can guarantee that that Dart did not invest $250MM+ of engineering (as did Ford and the Modular) into that custom block, and crank and rod set, so yes what I say does matter.

If your crate engine is a stock virgin two-bolt block or a mildly-built virgin four-bolt block and otherwise wasn't screwed up, 100k is realistic; anything else, it ranges from probably not (moderately-built 0.030" over seasoned four-bolt block) to not a chance (strongly-built 0.060" over seasoned two-bolt block).

You're hilarious  You literally don't have a clue what you're talking about yet you soldier on regardless.

[hounddog]

The 3.5L and 3.9L "High Value" V6 is of the same pushrod 60-deg V6 family as the 2.8L, 3.1L and 3.4L of the '80s and '90s, so I think it very debatable that it be considered all-new as can be the LSx and Hemi.

Further, GM has already stated (and shown) that the engine is being replaced by the "High Feature" 3.6L V6. The engine will essentially come and go with the current generation Impala and Pontiac. It may hang around in a legacy fashion as the base engine on a few cars, but that'll be about it.

I am neither saying that, nor am I disputing that.

But, you did not answer my question regarding companies investing in OHVs.

[omicron]

The 3.5L and 3.9L "High Value" V6 is of the same pushrod 60-deg V6 family as the 2.8L, 3.1L and 3.4L of the '80s and '90s, so I think it very debatable that it be considered all-new as can be the LSx and Hemi.

Further, GM has already stated (and shown) that the engine is being replaced by the "High Feature" 3.6L V6. The engine will essentially come and go with the current generation Impala and Pontiac. It may hang around in a legacy fashion as the base engine on a few cars, but that'll be about it.

I must say - the base 3.6/automatic combination that hides in lower-level Commodores (235hp, 4-speed automatic) is quite an underwhelming drivetrain, and even the 261hp/5-speed combination in higher trim levels isn't all that inspiring. The Falcon's I6 is noticeably more refined and torquey, at least until the direct-injection HFV6 variants arrive sometime later this year if speculation is to be believed.

[GoCougs]

You're hilarious  You literally don't have a clue what you're talking about yet you soldier on regardless.

I don't know how much more that I can add; the stock Chevy small block is a good ~100k motor; absolute so for the two-bolt Mexican (i.e., low nickel) blocks. I've owned and rebuilt both two-bolt and four-bolt SBCs, and otherwise lived that world for some time. A rebuild that lasts more than a 100k is a rarity; the more you build it up and/or the more you over-bore it the shorter life it'll have, and that's provided everything is done correctly (plastigage checked, etc.), which more than a few times it is not.

[GoCougs]

I am neither saying that, nor am I disputing that.

But, you did not answer my question regarding companies investing in OHVs.

I'm not sure the question I missed - why they'd invest in pushrod motors if there is no plan to make/keep them competitive? I think they plan/hope to, as in the market the LSx and Hemi play in, there is precious little competition.

[hounddog]

I'm not sure the question I missed - why they'd invest in pushrod motors if there is no plan to make/keep them competitive? I think they plan/hope to, as in the market the LSx and Hemi play in, there is precious little competition.

I asked if you were saying that GM/others were only investing in new OHV engines, and if so (please refer back to my other post for the question). 

I am not picking a fight, to be honest, just wondering what your position is on the investment issue as it pertains to freshening older engines for modern use in new models.

[Minpin]

Is this shit settled yet? I need to know which one to buy in the future. Because surely I don't want to buy the wrong motor and have to replace it 10 miles down the road.

[hounddog]

It would depend upon what the intended application is.  

[hotrodalex]

It would depend upon what the intended application is.  

Getting more than 10 miles down the road.

I would go with a supercharged hemi making 1300hp in that case. Of course I'm assuming the road is straight and I can just put the pedal to the metal and get 11 miles away in a couple minutes.

[Cobra93]

I don't know how much more that I can add; the stock Chevy small block is a good ~100k motor; absolute so for the two-bolt Mexican (i.e., low nickel) blocks.

Those blocks are preferred for their HIGH nickel content.

I've owned and rebuilt both two-bolt and four-bolt SBCs, and otherwise lived that world for some time. A rebuild that lasts more than a 100k is a rarity; the more you build it up and/or the more you over-bore it the shorter life it'll have, and that's provided everything is done correctly (plastigage checked, etc.), which more than a few times it is not.

And I've spent 16 years in a racing engine supplier, not only doing the machine work hands-on, but coordinating with customers and designing and specing out the combination that will produce the result they want. Everything from pump gas, hydraulic cam, daily driver 350 horse small blocks to Rodeck block, Brodix head, 420 inch Sprint car engines. I've probably forgotten more than you ever knew about building high performance engines. And, just so you know, NO real engine builders use plastigage. That's for back yard mechanics and lawn mower engine building.

I stay away from the performance market now because it gets tiresome having to constantly re-educate guys like yourself.

[GoCougs]

Those blocks are preferred for their HIGH nickel content.And I've spent 16 years in a racing engine supplier, not only doing the machine work hands-on, but coordinating with customers and designing and specing out the combination that will produce the result they want. Everything from pump gas, hydraulic cam, daily driver 350 horse small blocks to Rodeck block, Brodix head, 420 inch Sprint car engines. I've probably forgotten more than you ever knew about building high performance engines. And, just so you know, NO real engine builders use plastigage. That's for back yard mechanics and lawn mower engine building.

I stay away from the performance market now because it gets tiresome having to constantly re-educate guys like yourself.

The Mexican blocks are crap. It is the domestic, large journal, 4-bolt, non-400 blocks that are king (in terms of factory blocks), with a slight bent toward the '86+ one-piece rear main seal versions.

If you think I'm wrong, please state why in objective terms. I've never claimed to be an expert in anything, yet I clearly state facts and can be countered and/or challenged.

If HRAlex's crate motor is stock or very mild build, professionally done, on a non-400, 4-bolt block, I think he can expect 100k; anything other than that, from a stouter build, to two-bolt mains, to a 400 block, to a 0.060" over-bore, to gods knows what else, and I don't think he will get 100k.

And I emphasized the use of the term ("plastigage'd") such that it was a verb, which was to imply that the critical aspects of the build process are certified, however it may be done.

[GoCougs]

I asked if you were saying that GM/others were only investing in new OHV engines, and if so (please refer back to my other post for the question).  

I am not picking a fight, to be honest, just wondering what your position is on the investment issue as it pertains to freshening older engines for modern use in new models.

I think we can all agree it's much cheaper to update an older engine than it is to develop an all-new engine, and provided the automaker feels that it can be made competitive enough, I wouldn't blame them at all. At some point, all engines will need to be replaced no matter their valve train; the days of riding an engine for three or four decades as the domestics did are long gone; the market now is just far too competitive.

[Cobra93]

The Mexican blocks are crap.

Then why did you post this?

I don't know how much more that I can add; the stock Chevy small block is a good ~100k motor; absolute so for the two-bolt Mexican (i.e., low nickel) blocks.

It is the domestic, large journal, 4-bolt, non-400 blocks that are king (in terms of factory blocks), with a slight bent toward the '86+ one-piece rear main seal versions.

If you think I'm wrong, please state why in objective terms. I've never claimed to be an expert in anything, yet I clearly state facts and can be countered and/or challenged.

Actually, two bolt blocks are stronger due to the fact that they do not have two extra holes drilled all the way through the main webbing. This is why engine builders start with a two bolt block and convert it to splayed bolt four bolt caps. I've seen countless race engines rip the main webbing loose at the bottom of the cylinders yet I've never seen one break a main cap, whether two or four bolt.

If HRAlex's crate motor is stock or very mild build, professionally done, on a non-400, 4-bolt block, I think he can expect 100k; anything other than that, from a stouter build, to two-bolt mains, to a 400 block, to a 0.060" over-bore, to gods knows what else, and I don't think he will get 100k.

The mileage he can get out of his engine is far more dependant on how well it's tuned and maintained. If it's carbureted, maybe not. If he uses a more modern form of fuel distribution, there's no reason it can't go well beyond 100K. It's no coincidence that engines began lasting much longer after market wide adoption of closed loop fuel injection.

And I emphasized the use of the term ("plastigage'd") such that it was a verb, which was to imply that the critical aspects of the build process are certified, however it may be done.

Good engine builders do their measurements during machining and layout. If you don't trust your measurements and feel the need to use a relatively inaccurate method such as plastigage, you probably shouldn't be building engines.

[SVT32V]

Since we're going there, how about an LS9?

Interestingly, the LS9 crate engine costs a bit more ($21K) than the 5.4 OHC engine, sure it has a bit more hp but not much of a difference.

http://www.motorauthority.com/gm-to-offer-the-corvette-zr-1s-ls9-as-a-crate-engine.html

[hotrodalex]

Interestingly, the LS9 crate engine costs a bit more ($21K) than the 5.4 OHC engine, sure it has a bit more hp but not much of a difference.

http://www.motorauthority.com/gm-to-offer-the-corvette-zr-1s-ls9-as-a-crate-engine.html

It also has a more advanced supercharger, as it uses Eaton's new 4-lobe blower that provides better efficiency, almost as good as a turbo's. That could explain the price difference.

[SVT32V]

It also has a more advanced supercharger, as it uses Eaton's new 4-lobe blower that provides better efficiency, almost as good as a turbo's. That could explain the price difference.

Same blower as the GT500, its not like you give up a liter and make similar power with a crappy blower, per the provided 5.4 SC link.

"Fully dressed including accessory drive and 2.3L Twin Vortices Series Eaton 4-lobe 160 degree twist rotors supercharger  M-6066-SGT"

[hotrodalex]

Same blower as the GT500, its not like you give up a liter and make similar power with a crappy blower, per the provided 5.4 SC link.

"Fully dressed including accessory drive and 2.3L Twin Vortices Series Eaton 4-lobe 160 degree twist rotors supercharger  M-6066-SGT"

I never said the GT500's blower was be crappy. For some reason I thought it was an earlier version of the ZR1's. Blowers can make the same power and still have different efficiency rates.

And I stand corrected anyway, so it doesn't matter.

[GoCougs]

Then why did you post this?

I was implying that 100k is not a very long-lived motor.

Actually, two bolt blocks are stronger due to the fact that they do not have two extra holes drilled all the way through the main webbing. This is why engine builders start with a two bolt block and convert it to splayed bolt four bolt caps. I've seen countless race engines rip the main webbing loose at the bottom of the cylinders yet I've never seen one break a main cap, whether two or four bolt.

Fair enough, though I did not actually state which was stronger, but the stock-for-stock, the 2-bolt block doesn't have the stability for longer life at higher power levels, and the only 4-bolt block that has inherent problems is the 400 SBC.

The mileage he can get out of his engine is far more dependant on how well it's tuned and maintained. If it's carbureted, maybe not. If he uses a more modern form of fuel distribution, there's no reason it can't go well beyond 100K. It's no coincidence that engines began lasting much longer after market wide adoption of closed loop fuel injection.

I'm sure this is a factor, but it won't supercede other life-affecting factors that I've mentioned previously.

Good engine builders do their measurements during machining and layout. If you don't trust your measurements and feel the need to use a relatively inaccurate method such as plastigage, you probably shouldn't be building engines.

Again, fair enough, and I think/thought that's exactly what I was implying.

[565]

This can't end!


Pushrods > DOHC.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

This can't end!


Pushrods > DOHC.

Please let it die!

[280Z Turbo]

Please let it die!