SENTENCED: Accident question (Total loss)

[TBR]

I saw one yesterday on the back where a Hemi plaque would normally go it said 3.0l Diesel.  I wonder what the mileage for it actually is? 

The ratings are 18/23.

[The Pirate]

The ratings are 18/23.

That's pretty spot on.  My uncle has a Liberty with the same (similar?) engine, and he's averaging 20 mpg. 

[CJ]

The Liberty has a 2.8L diesel.

[AutobahnSHO]

They're sticking diesels into the Town & Country in Europe.
Supposedly Americans aren't ready for that. I kinda disagree- the people still buying minivans are:
1- practical people who are looking for lots of carrying space, the fuel savings would be a good selling point
2- fleet sales, businesses wouldn't have any issue (as long as they're WELL MARKED)
3- rentals, might want to skip that (all kinds of wrong gas problems...)

[rohan]

Rohan tows a boat, as I recall.

Besides, someone who tows doesn't necessarily have a big trailer behind him all the time. Even once a month would be considered very frequent use.

Nope no boat but I do have a utility trailer.

[rohan]

The Tahoe costs some $15k more despite having a fraction of the functionality.

Combined averages:
Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid: 21
Dodge Grand Caravan: 20
Honda Odyssey: 20
Nissan Quest: 19
Toyota Sienna: 19
Kia Sedona: 18
Dodge Durango: 17
Chevrolet Suburban/Tahoe: 17
Ford Expedition: 15
Nissan Armada: 15
Toyota Sequioa: 15

All vehicles are with the most efficient powertrain (meaning 2WD and, oddly enough, the larger engine in every case).

So, throw out the rather irrelevant Tahoe Hybrid for value reasons and the minivans have a solid lead in fuel economy. They also have a solid lead in value, handling, ride, passenger comfort, passenger room, and cargo room. SUVs are more stylish, can tow better, can offroad better (though let's not pretend that fullsize suvs are worth much offroad), and handle better in snow.

I'm not gonna agree that they have "solid lead" on gas mileage because that's 50/50 rating city/highway which NO ONE does.  They get better highway but it's def. a draw city.  I'ld also say that passenger comfort in a SUV is as good as a van.  My second row seats have their own hvac controls that are for each seat and both seats recline and have seat heat. The second row buckets are exactly as comfy as the front buckets with plenty of leg room.  Neither one has any comfort in the 3rd row for an adult.  The only place passenger room is better on the van is 3rd row.  I also took mine Durango for service this afternoon and was talking with my salesman while I waited he told me that right now used SUV's and trucks are selling better an d for more than vans are but he couldn't answer me why.  Handling and ride are a push. 

Why aren't full size SUV's worth anything off road?  They have the same suspension and 4x4 that their truck brothers have- if anything they'ld be better because theres more weight over the back axle.  Yes they're lower then the trucks but like on mine all I have to do to increase the height is to tighten the torsion nuts and it lifts it up.  I keep mine low because it keeps the oversteer down and rides more carlike- tighten them up and raise it up and it feels more like a truck.

[ifcar]

" They get better highway but it's def. a draw city."

No...

[rohan]

No what?  That's not a post that's a quip and not even a useful one.

[ifcar]

No what?  That's not a post that's a quip and not even a useful one.

As in, "no, full-size SUVs do not equal a minivan's city mileage."

[Eye of the Tiger]

That's pretty spot on.  My uncle has a Liberty with the same (similar?) engine, and he's averaging 20 mpg. 

That's not too impressive. I get 20 mpg in the Rodeo crawling around blubbery fields half the time.

[rohan]

As in, "no, full-size SUVs do not equal a minivan's city mileage."

How so?  Vans are rated anywhere from 16-18 city my durango was rated 15-17- that's a draw. 

[TBR]

How so?  Vans are rated anywhere from 16-18 city my durango was rated 15-17- that's a draw. 

Durangos get 13-14, the Odyssey gets 16-17. That isn't a draw.

[TBR]

I'm not gonna agree that they have "solid lead" on gas mileage because that's 50/50 rating city/highway which NO ONE does.  They get better highway but it's def. a draw city.  I'ld also say that passenger comfort in a SUV is as good as a van.  My second row seats have their own hvac controls that are for each seat and both seats recline and have seat heat. The second row buckets are exactly as comfy as the front buckets with plenty of leg room.  Neither one has any comfort in the 3rd row for an adult.  The only place passenger room is better on the van is 3rd row.  I also took mine Durango for service this afternoon and was talking with my salesman while I waited he told me that right now used SUV's and trucks are selling better an d for more than vans are but he couldn't answer me why.  Handling and ride are a push. 

Why aren't full size SUV's worth anything off road?  They have the same suspension and 4x4 that their truck brothers have- if anything they'ld be better because theres more weight over the back axle.  Yes they're lower then the trucks but like on mine all I have to do to increase the height is to tighten the torsion nuts and it lifts it up.  I keep mine low because it keeps the oversteer down and rides more carlike- tighten them up and raise it up and it feels more like a truck.

Fullsize trucks aren't worth much either offroad, they are too big.

BTW, most people I know drive more highway than city so don't generalize based on your own experience. Without some intense statistical survey, the best way to compare real life gas mileages is to simply average the highway and city EPA numbers, that's what I did.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I'm not gonna agree that they have "solid lead" on gas mileage because that's 50/50 rating city/highway which NO ONE does.  They get better highway but it's def. a draw city.  I'ld also say that passenger comfort in a SUV is as good as a van.  My second row seats have their own hvac controls that are for each seat and both seats recline and have seat heat. The second row buckets are exactly as comfy as the front buckets with plenty of leg room.  Neither one has any comfort in the 3rd row for an adult.  The only place passenger room is better on the van is 3rd row.  I also took mine Durango for service this afternoon and was talking with my salesman while I waited he told me that right now used SUV's and trucks are selling better an d for more than vans are but he couldn't answer me why.  Handling and ride are a push. 

Why aren't full size SUV's worth anything off road?  They have the same suspension and 4x4 that their truck brothers have- if anything they'ld be better because theres more weight over the back axle.  Yes they're lower then the trucks but like on mine all I have to do to increase the height is to tighten the torsion nuts and it lifts it up.  I keep mine low because it keeps the over understeer down and rides more carlike- tighten them up and raise it up and it feels more like a truck.

Sorry
Also, many SUV's have completely different suspension than their pickup counterparts.

Fullsize trucks aren't worth much either offroad, they are too big.

BTW, most people I know drive more highway than city so don't generalize based on your own experience. Without some intense statistical survey, the best way to compare real life gas mileages is to simply average the highway and city EPA numbers, that's what I did.

Fullsize trucks are still easier to find with huge tires, huge ground clearance, and solid axles; especially the 3/4 ton size and up. With a few exceptions, smaller trucks and SUV's usually require lift kits and such.

[ifcar]

How so?  Vans are rated anywhere from 16-18 city my durango was rated 15-17- that's a draw. 

The Durango is rated for 13 city.

[AutobahnSHO]

right now used SUV's and trucks are selling better and for more than vans are but he couldn't answer me why.  Handling and ride are a push. 

Why aren't full size SUV's worth anything off road?  They have the same suspension and 4x4 that their truck brothers have-

1- People are quick to forget and/or ignore gas prices. For whatever reason people feel the need to make fun of minivans so many steer clear of them. Trucks and SUVs have ALWAYS been sold for more money- PERCEIVED value. (And actually less engineering required in some cases!!)

2- Did you ever see the BMW commercials a few years ago making fun of "the other" SUVs? They were claiming that most SUVs are based off of trucks so have inferior road driving and handling. Theirs was designed for the road so were better..
--Many others have followed, (mostly SUVs, not trucks so much,) sacrificing off-road capability to cater to the herds that have started buying SUVs/ trucks. (just to drive on-road.)

It wasn't so long ago you heard "my SUV sure doesn't handle like __________ (insert car here.)" Now people are just getting used to it as well..

[rohan]

Durangos get 13-14, the Odyssey gets 16-17. That isn't a draw.

that's bullsheet- I get 16.4 on average when I'm tooling around town- and the sticker on mine said 15 city  18 highway when the wife got it.  under athat it said city range 14-16 highway range 17-19.  I can also get 22 on the highway if I'm careful. 

[ifcar]

that's bullsheet- I get 16.4 on average when I'm tooling around town-

What you get is entirely useless for a comparison against what another car gets. Unless you're driving a van the same way, you can't say that a van doesn't get better based on your number.

[rohan]

Fullsize trucks aren't worth much either offroad, they are too big.

Then why does the military have them?

BTW, most people I know drive more highway than city so don't generalize based on your own experience. Without some intense statistical survey, the best way to compare real life gas mileages is to simply average the highway and city EPA numbers, that's what I did.

ok speech police.   I didn't know I needed your permission on the contents of my posts here.  Plus I really don't care what most people you know do- the numbers are more or less done up at 50/50. 

[rohan]

Sorry
Also, many SUV's have completely different suspension than their pickup counterparts.

It's oversteer not understeer.  I'll give you the many diff. part but I'm not talking about Honda and those kinds I'm talking about the Expedition tahoe durango full size ones. 

[rohan]

The Durango is rated for 13 city.

You know- that's not what the sticker said- 15 city.  don't really give a shit what you find online three years after she bought it.    And it's pretty accurate too- anyone want to come up and go for a drive with me?

[ifcar]

You know- that's not what the sticker said- 15 city.  don't really give a shit what you find online three years after she bought it.   

They changed the rating system. All the minivans are also rated higher under the old tests.

[rohan]

Durangos get 13-14, the Odyssey gets 16-17. That isn't a draw.

Which engine?  And I'm too pressed for time to look it up- what's the town and country rated for? 

[rohan]

They changed the rating system. All the minivans are also rated higher under the old tests.

So don't tell I'm wrong when I'm not.  Mine said what it said and it's almost exactly right city- highway it's way off.

[ifcar]

So don't tell I'm wrong when I'm not.  Mine said what it said and it's almost exactly right city- highway it's way off.

You said SUVs match minivans' mileage in the city. No standardized test agrees.

[Eye of the Tiger]

It's oversteer not understeer.  I'll give you the many diff. part but I'm not talking about Honda and those kinds I'm talking about the Expedition tahoe durango full size ones. 

Where in your cop driving handbook does it tell you that lowering and softening the front springs of a vehicle decreases oversteer?
Wait, I'm not even going to aruge with you. Argue with this chart, and I'll just watch:

[Cookie Monster]

So don't tell I'm wrong when I'm not.  Mine said what it said and it's almost exactly right city- highway it's way off.

You are wrong. When your Durango had a 15 mpg city rating, minivans had an even higher rating than that (don't feel like looking it up).

You can't compare the old, higher ratings of one vehicle with the new, lower ratings of another vehicle. That completely skews your argument.

If your going to insist that your SUV gets 15 mpg city, then look up the old EPA ratings for minivans and compare it against that.

[rohan]

You said SUVs match minivans' mileage in the city. No standardized test agrees.

No I didn't say that I said they were a push- there's a diff.

[MX793]

Why would you have 4x4 on in dry roads? Besides it's not like turning off a modern 4x4 is hard or anything- turn a knob and it's off.   Most SUVs have AWD for light conditions anyway like mine.  There's also a mpg penalty for AWD so AWD vans are about the same as most SUVs on gas. 

In the winter, road conditions can be spotty.  Patches may be dry while some patches are snowy and icy.  For instance, scaling a steep hill that has blowing snow drifts across the roadway.  The road's not consistantly snow covered, but it's snowy enough that you'd want the added traction of 4WD.  4x4 does not work well if you have to make corners on a dry patch of road, and I doubt you want to constantly keep shifting from 4WD to 2WD.  AWD can adapt on the fly without driver input.  For serious mud-bogging or rock crawling, you want a real 4x4 system with a low range.  In typical winter conditions, AWD is generally more convenient.

[AutobahnSHO]

IF you compare year to year ratings, they will be similar EPA testing methods. I think they changed it a year or two ago to reflect "more realistic" ratings.

-either way EPA will vary from ANYONE'S "REAL" driving mileage.

----ALL of the mpg ratings I've seen puts minivans at better fuel economy than similar sized SUVs.
(I wouldn't put a Mazda MPV against an excursion, or a bigger minivan against a tiny SUV...)