Promises, Promises

Started by Raza , July 13, 2009, 06:27:04 PM

Raza

Promises, Promises...

Every year.  It seems like every year, some manufacturer comes out with some brilliant new car or new technology and every year it dazzles and wows millions of auto show audiences and members of the press alike.  And, like clockwork, I sit back, stifling a yawn and going on with my daily business.  

Never get your hopes up is my motto, you see.  There?s no point in it, because much like the US world soccer team, automobile manufacturers always disappoint.  By the time a car is done with the focus groups and cost-cutters, you get what you had already on the market from someone else; another boring, mainstream car, meant to transport a person from one place to another.

And considering the car was invented for that very purpose, it may seem a bit unreasonable to ask a car to do anything else.  But, while I claim over and over to anyone foolish enough to continue listening once I get started talking about cars that I am a reasonable man, I am indeed far from it.  I don?t want a car that transports me.  Every car will do that whether or not it?s any fun.  I want a car that ignites my passion; I want a car that makes every journey more important than the destination.  I want a car that inspires me to drive fifty miles to get whatever from anywhere or nowhere at all when I could have gotten it or nothing much, much closer.  I want a car that inspires me.

So, on to today?s undoubtedly broken promise: the Chevrolet Camaro.  To start, it promises movie star good looks (because, well, it is a movie star), real driving thrills, and Megan Fox?s phone number in my speed dial.  All these big promises from a car built by a bankrupt car company in a little place called Detroit.  I?ve never been to Detroit, but as lovely as it sounds, it doesn?t quite roll off the tongue as nicely as Maranello or Modena or?Zuffenhausen.  But before we get to the current Camaro, as iconic as the car is, I?d like to give you a brief history of it, and the major events surrounding it.

1492:  Christopher Columbus sails for India, goes the wrong way.  Refuses to pull over and ask for directions from the gas station attendant.  Reaches new land.  Calls it America.
1495:  General Motors introduces the 2010 Camaro Concept.  The world holds its breath.
1967:  The 1967 Camaro battles with the Ford Mustang for its place in America?s heart.
2002:  Chevrolet Camaro goes out of production along with its twin, the Pontiac Firebird.
2005:  Ford introduces new Mustang.  Beats Camaro sales by an extremely large margin.
2007:  The 2010 Camaro stars in summer blockbuster Transformers.
2008:  General Motors, hat in hand, begs for money from the US government; forced to do tricks on CSPAN.  Senate committee favorite: the Milk-Bone on the nose trick.
2009:  The 2010 Camaro reprises its roll in summer blockbuster and supposedly finally hits showrooms.  GM also declares bankruptcy, hopes no one notices.  Cynics wonder if the Camaro will ever come out.

And that brings us to today.  On to the first promise?movie star good looks?which should be an easy one because it is actually a movie star (though playing itself in two summer movies hardly shows range in acting ability; I seriously doubt the Academy will take notice until the Camaro does a meaty character piece).  Some people look at the Camaro and are speechless; brought to silence by its utter unquestionable masculine beauty.  Other people, like me, who have eyes, see the Camaro as a garish, cartoonish caricature of a car; a Hot Wheels abomination come to life with wheels the size of a small house and windows just for show.  It looks like it could be drawn by a street artist on a large sheet of paper skiing and sold for five dollars.  And the color of this particular car, painted in something called Victory Red, is indeed as red as a kindergartener?s face who has just called his teacher ?mom?, and not at all very flattering.  Seeing the Camaro in the flesh and really taking a good look at it just shows how hard it?s trying to look tough.  And it does look tough.  But it also looks ridiculous.  That?s the first strike.

Driving thrills?  This car is badged with a red ?RS? on the back of it.  Damn, just one letter off of the good one.  Those two little red letters mean that this car has a V6 (which is two fewer cylinders than required for a muscle car) and to add insult to injury, some idiot fitted it with an automatic transmission (which has one less pedal than I generally desire).  As a result, driving thrills aren?t really on the menu here.  V6 muscle cars are for people who drive very slowly and want to convince you that they could, of course, blow the doors off of what you?ve got.  That is, if they really wanted to.  But they don?t, because they?d rather not embarrass you in front of your friends and family.  V6 muscle car drivers are among the most magnanimous drivers out there.  Strike two.  

And Megan Fox?s phone number?  Checked my phone.  It?s not there.  That?s fine, I didn?t want it anyway.  Really, I didn?t.  I swear.

That?s all three strikes.  If the Camaro were called Casey, it would be sitting on the bench right now, with GM fans holding their heads in their hands wondering how it could have failed so miserably.  Then something happened.

I fired up the engine.  The V6 may be down two cylinders on the Mustang GT, but it?s not down on power.  The surprisingly smooth six speed automatic hurls me into the first corner, and I was delighted to find well-weighted steering that makes the car go in the direction I point it, thanks to sticky Pirelli PZero rubber painted over 20 inch wheels.  The first corner leads into a second, which is where most traditional muscle cars run out of ideas.  But I spin my hands around the wheel, and the Camaro turns in with confidence, changing direction with immediacy, and I can almost feel the tires digging into the hot tarmac.  On corner exit, I held speed, straightened the wheel, and buried my foot to eat the distance to the coming 90 degree left hander as quickly as possible.  

And it does get eaten quickly.  The V6?s 304 horses are able to move the Camaro?s considerable weight with true conviction.  The pace is so rapid that I wasn?t entirely sure that I was actually in a V6 model.  No, it didn?t rip my face off, but it was swift.  And as it gained speed hurriedly I was treated to a sound so sweet filling my ears that I had to forgive it for not giving me the starlet?s phone number.  Having dispensed with the left hander easily, I took to the straight, enjoying that 3.6 liter?s exhaust note, and setting up for the next left hand bend.  The car handled beautifully.  No, you?ll never get into a Camaro and mistake it for a Lotus Elise, but you?ll forget the reported sloppy handling of all the cars in the same vein that came before.  One lap was enough for me to let the Mighty Casey Camaro take another swing.  

Ten more laps on this short private track, and I was hesitant to let the wheel go.  Ever.  After the first lap, I still missed having a third pedal and control over my gears, so I pulled the shifter back into M (which stands for ?drive?), and an S popped up on the dash (which also stands for ?drive?).  Then I clicked a paddle on the left side of the steering wheel and M1 came up.  M1 stands for first gear.  The paddle shift never once denied me an up- or downshift, executing them smoothly and quickly, with little slack in the drivetrain.  In older manumatic cars, you could feel the transmission reluctantly giving up control, and slowly switching to the gear for which you asked.  Not so here.  This transmission is thoroughly modern.  One complaint though, is that the shift paddles are mounted to the wheel and not the steering column, which means you can be left hunting for the buttons when transitioning out of corners.  It?s not a replacement for a proper manual transmission, but it?ll do in a pinch.  

As I flowed from corner to corner, the Camaro continued to impress.  It communicated well, it handled confidently, it turned in eagerly, and changed direction with aplomb.  Muscle cars don?t do this.  Muscle cars get squidgy and understeer out of corners, and then you get make the excuse that it?s actually very fast in a straight line, and that?s what really counts.  Not so with the new Camaro.  

Now, a glass smooth test track isn?t the best place to see how a car will perform in the real world.  Even so, I could tell that the Camaro is firm, but also comfortable, without allowing the car to roll too much in S bends.  I?d have to get it on to the pockmarked Pennsylvania roads to be sure, but so far, it seems like it would be perfectly fine for long trips as well as backroad blasts, although I?m concerned that the large wheels could cause some harshness in the ride off of smooth roads.  

On a test track, you might not notice that the door sills come up to your chin.  Or that they?ve hidden the door handles by your feet.  Or that the interior, while designed to be quite ugly, seemingly on purpose, is actually not of poor quality.  Or that you can?t see anything behind you, or to your side through the slit-like windows.  Or that the man who designed the quarter windows must have had quite a sense of humor for an engineer.  To get an idea of what it?s like to sit in a Camaro and try to see out of it, you should lie down in your bathtub, put postage stamps over your eyes, and try to look around without having them fall off.  Don?t stick them to your eyelids though, because these days, stamps are expensive.

However, the Camaro is not.  A base model Camaro starts at just a few dollars more than $22,000, and this model, a 1LT with the RS and Convenience packages came to just a hair over 28 grand.  Get rid of the RS pack, which is big wheels, tail lamps, and HIDs, and the automatic transmission, and you?re looking at a more reasonable 25 thousand and change.  If you can live without Bluetooth and the other little tech bits, then a standard 1LT is just in the 24s.  If you absolutely need the options, and of course, I do, it?s best to wait until the Camaro starts to stay on the lots a bit longer, because they are going for a premium over MSRP at the moment.  And paying that is just bad policy.  Built the way I would buy it, it makes it to the cash register at $27,790, after removing the automatic transmission and adding the power glass sunroof (an option not available on the Ford Mustang) to the RS and Convenience packs.  

And I would buy it.  

Not too long ago, I drove the Hyundai Genesis Coupe V6 and raved over it.  I was impressed with the interior and the handling and the fun and composure relative to the Tiburon that came before.  You?d be hard pressed to get me to buy one now.  It looks better than the Camaro, it is a nicer place to sit than the Camaro, but is it better to drive?  I?m not so sure.  

For the first time in a long time, I?m impressed by a new car.  For the first time in a long time, a car actually lives up to promises it made before it came to market.  And for the first time in a long time, the Ford Mustang actually has an uphill battle.  The 2010 Mustang better be good, because the 2010 Camaro is damn good.  It?s not a muscle car that needs excuses made for it; it?s thoroughly modern GT car, executed with real skill.  It?s not perfect, but it is great fun.  And that counts for a lot, even in something invented to just get you from one place to the next.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=19263.msg1111826#msg1111826 date=1247531224

swift




:wub:
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Raza

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

2o6

Good write-up.


I enjoyed it throughly.





Now we wait until Hemi and Byetme come up and rip it to shreads.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=19263.msg1111835#msg1111835 date=1247532045
Somehow, I knew...

Now I just need to know where I can drive new Camaros on test tracks.... because now I want to.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

MX793

Just an FYI, the RS package can be had on either the V6 or the V8, so an RS badge does not automatically mean there's only a V6 under the hood.

How was the seat bolstering?  My biggest complaint after sitting in the new Mustang is that the seat bolstering seemed wimpy for a performance car.  My parents Mazda6 has as much, if not more, lateral support and that's a family car.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Payman

Good write up. I thought I wanted a black SS, but seeing how they're going for $45~49,000 here  :facepalm:, I thinking a 6 speed RS ($33~$36,000) would be a better choice. Maybe next year I'll find one for $25K.

Raza

Quote from: MX793 on July 13, 2009, 06:50:46 PM
Just an FYI, the RS package can be had on either the V6 or the V8, so an RS badge does not automatically mean there's only a V6 under the hood.

How was the seat bolstering?  My biggest complaint after sitting in the new Mustang is that the seat bolstering seemed wimpy for a performance car.  My parents Mazda6 has as much, if not more, lateral support and that's a family car.

They held me in place well.  The footwell was a little on the wide side.

Didn't know that about the RS pack.  It wasn't like that before, was it?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Cookie Monster

Nice review, Raza.

BTW, does the LS actually come with these wheels?

RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
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Raza

Quote from: thecarnut on July 13, 2009, 07:02:26 PM
Nice review, Raza.

BTW, does the LS actually come with these wheels?



As I recall, they are a $4800 option.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

2o6

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=19263.msg1111866#msg1111866 date=1247533445
As I recall, they are a $4800 option.

Are you sure? That car is a bog standard, base LS. That's what Chevy shows on their site.

Cookie Monster

Quote from: Raza  on July 13, 2009, 07:04:05 PM
As I recall, they are a $4800 option.
The chrome SS wheels are a $4800 option but on the Build Your Own on chevrolet.com those are standard, supposedly on the LS.

I hope they are standard (though I thought it came with hubcaps) because that is the car I'd buy over any Mustang or Challenger (and most hot hatches as well).

OTD for only $23k!
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

Payman

Quote from: Raza  on July 13, 2009, 07:04:05 PM
As I recall, they are a $4800 option.

WHAT? I can get nicer ones for a third of that. Looks great though.

Payman

Quote from: thecarnut on July 13, 2009, 07:06:41 PM
The chrome SS wheels are a $4800 option but on the Build Your Own on chevrolet.com those are standard, supposedly on the LS.

I hope they are standard (though I thought it came with hubcaps) because that is the car I'd buy over any Mustang or Challenger (and most hot hatches as well).

OTD for only $23k!

If that's the case those would look great on my black RS!

MX793

Quote from: Raza  on July 13, 2009, 06:56:46 PM
They held me in place well.  The footwell was a little on the wide side.

Didn't know that about the RS pack.  It wasn't like that before, was it?

The last time they offered the RS package, in the middle of the 4th generation's run in the mid 90s, it was an appearance package for the V6 only.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

MX793

Quote from: thecarnut on July 13, 2009, 07:02:26 PM
Nice review, Raza.

BTW, does the LS actually come with these wheels?



The LS comes with steel wheels.  I believe those are them.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Cookie Monster

I couldn't find the RS pack on chevy.com but since I don't want it I don't care.

Seriously, $23k is close awfully close to a Civic Si and other hot hatches.

The only reason I'd get a Civic Si is because it's a sedan. And I LOVE the way the Camaro looks in gray with black wheels. I would get one in a heartbeat.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

Minpin

How fast is the V6 Camaro? About the same as the Mustang GT?
?Do you expect me to talk?"
"No, Mr Bond. I expect you to die!?

Payman

Quote from: MX793 on July 13, 2009, 07:08:28 PM
The last time they offered the RS package, in the middle of the 4th generation's run in the mid 90s, it was an appearance package for the V6 only.

Yeah it was basically the IROC appearance package, with a boxy wing.

Cookie Monster

Quote from: MX793 on July 13, 2009, 07:10:19 PM
The LS comes with steel wheels.  I believe those are them.
Best looking steel wheels ever.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

MX793

Quote from: thecarnut on July 13, 2009, 07:10:20 PM
I couldn't find the RS pack on chevy.com but since I don't want it I don't care.

Seriously, $23k is close awfully close to a Civic Si and other hot hatches.

The only reason I'd get a Civic Si is because it's a sedan. And I LOVE the way the Camaro looks in gray with black wheels. I would get one in a heartbeat.

The LS trim is the only trim on which the RS package is not offered.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Payman

Quote from: Minpin on July 13, 2009, 07:10:54 PM
How fast is the V6 Camaro? About the same as the Mustang GT?

0-60 in 5.9 vs 4.9ish.

Eye of the Tiger

2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Cookie Monster

Quote from: MX793 on July 13, 2009, 07:11:05 PM
The LS trim is the only trim on which the RS package is not offered.
Ah, I see.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

MX793

Quote from: Minpin on July 13, 2009, 07:10:54 PM
How fast is the V6 Camaro? About the same as the Mustang GT?

Not even close.  It's a few ticks slower than a Genesis 3.8.  0-60 in around 5.9-6.1 (similar to a Caddy CTS).  It's not slow, but it won't hang with a Mustang in a straight line.  In the twisties, provided the Mustang doesn't have the track pack, it might hold its own.  IIRC, the V6s put up equal or better handling numbers than the SSs.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

Cookie Monster

Quote from: Payman on July 13, 2009, 07:12:54 PM
0-60 in 5.9 vs 4.9ish.
Nothing some cams and a turbo can't fix. :devil:
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

MX793

I saw a yellow Camaro in a parking lot as I drove by with the black hood stripes.  Looked pretty menacing with that color scheme.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

FlatBlackCaddy

I enjoyed the read until you started fawning over it like a school girl at jonas brothers concert.

So it went from a abomination(styling wise) to a car that moistened your panties, a car that just happened to have a slushbox.

To me it sounds like you just wanted to like it so you could insert a brillant(i'm being generous) mood switch in the review.


Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 13, 2009, 07:15:47 PM
I enjoyed the read until you started fawning over it like a school girl at jonas brothers concert.

So it went from a abomination(styling wise) to a car that moistened your panties, a car that just happened to have a slushbox.

To me it sounds like you just wanted to like it so you could insert a brillant(i'm being generous) mood switch in the review.



We all know that he loved it from the beginning. It's impossible for anyone not to.
2008 TUNDRA (Truck Ultra-wideband Never-say-die Daddy Rottweiler Awesome)

Minpin

Christ, the bankruptcy is hitting GM hard. Their website is ghastly! It's slow and shit times out all the time.  :facepalm:


I can't even build a car for fucks sake!
?Do you expect me to talk?"
"No, Mr Bond. I expect you to die!?