EPA - Do they suck or not?

[cawimmer430]

Just curious. They recently released "predicted fuel economy" ratings for the Mercedes S400 Hybrid which basically claim it gets the same miserable fuel economy as a Lexus LS600h.

Everybody seems to believe them when the article clearly states that this is PREDICTED FUEL ECONOMY. They basically have not driven the car and yet they want to predict the fuel economy. FAIL. Somebody needs to ring them up and tell them that the S400 Hybrid isn't even a full hybrid but a mild hybrid. I assume these clowns think it is a full hybrid because of the "Hybrid" nomenclature at the rear.  

So now we have everyone slamming the S400 Hybrid claiming it is a joke because it is weaker than the LS600h yet "gets the same fuel economy". Do I have the right to say "FUCK YOU AND YOUR BULLSHIT, EPA" or should I bow down to their all-knowing wisdom? 

[Byteme]

Just curious. They recently released "predicted fuel economy" ratings for the Mercedes S400 Hybrid which basically claim it gets the same miserable fuel economy as a Lexus LS600h.

Everybody seems to believe them when the article clearly states that this is PREDICTED FUEL ECONOMY. They basically have not driven the car and yet they want to predict the fuel economy. FAIL. Somebody needs to ring them up and tell them that the S400 Hybrid isn't even a full hybrid but a mild hybrid. I assume these clowns think it is a full hybrid because of the "Hybrid" nomenclature at the rear.  

So now we have everyone slamming the S400 Hybrid claiming it is a joke because it is weaker than the LS600h yet "gets the same fuel economy". Do I have the right to say "FUCK YOU AND YOUR BULLSHIT, EPA" or should I bow down to their all-knowing wisdom? 

Call: 1+ (202) 272-0167.  Ask for Lisa Jackson.

[ifcar]

Usually the "predicted" ratings aren't done by the EPA, but they're what the automaker thinks the EPA will rate it. It's not clear from the quick Googling I've done whether this is a formal EPA rating or not.

[Catman]

Mercedes = Fail

[GoCougs]

Is there truly objective (i.e., not mag racing) data stating otherwise?

[NomisR]

EPA = government organization = part of welfare state = bad

[Tave]

Oh, for the love of--

Wimmer, let me save you the suspense: the Benz hybrid is going to be just as stupid a marketing gimmick as the LS. Just do us all a favor, and don't give yourself an aneurism when it happens. It's not worth it.

[280Z Turbo]

EPA = government organization = part of welfare state = bad

The free market solution to pollution is to sell carbon filter gas masks to people in California.

[S204STi]

Honestly, on the whole I'm happy to have the EPA.  I'm glad to drink potable ground water now that we can't just dump whatever we want into the water supply, the air quality of most cities is vastly improved, and we have objective comparisons for the sake of informed shopping to use, albeit with a grain of salt.  So no, the EPA doesn't completely suck.

[CALL_911]

Honestly, on the whole I'm happy to have the EPA.  I'm glad to drink potable ground water now that we can't just dump whatever we want into the water supply, the air quality of most cities is vastly improved, and we have objective comparisons for the sake of informed shopping to use, albeit with a grain of salt.  So no, the EPA doesn't completely suck.

+1

I'm also with Tave, the S400 hybrid is just as much a gimmick as the LS600 is.

[Submariner]

I've gotten 25MPG in my dad's V12 S600.  EPA rating's, i've found, are rarely even generally accurate.

[ifcar]

I've gotten 25MPG in my dad's V12 S600.  EPA rating's, i've found, are rarely even generally accurate.

Everyone gets different mileage based on how they drive. But if you're driving the same way in two different cars, the difference in mileage should be reflected in the EPA figures.

[cawimmer430]

Oh, for the love of--

Wimmer, let me save you the suspense: the Benz hybrid is going to be just as stupid a marketing gimmick as the LS. Just do us all a favor, and don't give yourself an aneurism when it happens. It's not worth it.

Huh? 

I'm not crazy about the S400 Hybrid either. I find it's concept better than the LS600h though, which is performance biased. Give me an S350 CDI anyday over this hybrid stuff.

My question is just if the EPA can be trusted. I find it oddly disturbing to release fuel economy data which has not been derived through testing but through estimation. 

[cawimmer430]

Usually the "predicted" ratings aren't done by the EPA, but they're what the automaker thinks the EPA will rate it. It's not clear from the quick Googling I've done whether this is a formal EPA rating or not.

So MB provided the EPA with these ratings basically? Any chance that these poor ratings were deliberately provided to the EPA because the car is actually more efficient? Seems to me that this is usually the case with German manufacturers that tend to underrate their performance data.

[ifcar]

So MB provided the EPA with these ratings basically? Any chance that these poor ratings were deliberately provided to the EPA because the car is actually more efficient? Seems to me that this is usually the case with German manufacturers that tend to underrate their performance data.

If it's a "predicted" rating, it has nothing to do with the EPA. The EPA does not endorse those ratings, it's just what MB is telling magazines it expects to get.

If it was done by the EPA, then it's the true rating based on the tests, not a guess.

Articles online vary on which of those two it was.

[r0tor]

This months Car and Driver has a pretty good article on the EPA testing... might be on their websitee already - i think its called "A8out EPA Numb3rs" or something like that

[cawimmer430]

If it's a "predicted" rating, it has nothing to do with the EPA. The EPA does not endorse those ratings, it's just what MB is telling magazines it expects to get.

If it was done by the EPA, then it's the true rating based on the tests, not a guess.

Articles online vary on which of those two it was.

But why would MB give such poor ratings to the EPA for their own product?

In Europe the S400 Hybrid has continually outperformed the LS600h in terms of gas mileage.

[Byteme]

Huh? 

I'm not crazy about the S400 Hybrid either. I find it's concept better than the LS600h though, which is performance biased. Give me an S350 CDI anyday over this hybrid stuff.

My question is just if the EPA can be trusted. I find it oddly disturbing to release fuel economy data which has not been derived through testing but through estimation. 

Nothing wrong with estimation if it works.  An example.  In the 40's the government audited Ford Motor company because of the large contracts the military had with Ford.  Henry I had no use for modern accounting practices.  His general philosophy was you took in money and spent money.  If, at the end of the year you had money left over you made a profit.  The auditors were amazed when they discovered that Ford's accounts payable department paid invoices based on the weight of the invoices.  They were even more amazed when they discovered how accurate the system was.

In general the EPA estimation process is pretty accurate.  And as has been pointed out the EPA only test a fraction of vehicles for sale in the US, the remainder of the ratings rely on manufacturer's estimates.

[AutobahnSHO]

Well, with today's computers & junk all you need to calculate the fuel efficiency is:

-weight of the car
-displacement of the engine
-gearing
-hp (efficiency of the engine)


(Right?)

[MrH]

Well, with today's computers & junk all you need to calculate the fuel efficiency is:

-weight of the car
-displacement of the engine
-gearing
-hp (efficiency of the engine)


(Right?)

Horsepower doesn't tell the efficiency of the engine.

There are countless variables to take into account (efficiency of the drive train, tires, and drag to name a few more important ones).  They can get pretty darn close now though.

[TBR]

But why would MB give such poor ratings to the EPA for their own product?

In Europe the S400 Hybrid has continually outperformed the LS600h in terms of gas mileage.

Because that's what they think it will achieve. I am pretty sure the exact EPA test cycle is available, I am sure that when automakers publish predicted numbers it's simply the result of them running the tests themselves. The EPA tests aren't perfect, and they seem to be especially unpredictable with hybrids.

[565]

The S400 is a joke.  It is weaker than the LS600h and yet gets the same fuel economy.  

Lexus >>>  Mercedes

[Tave]

A joke of a joke, in other words.

[cawimmer430]

Nothing wrong with estimation if it works.  An example.  In the 40's the government audited Ford Motor company because of the large contracts the military had with Ford.  Henry I had no use for modern accounting practices.  His general philosophy was you took in money and spent money.  If, at the end of the year you had money left over you made a profit.  The auditors were amazed when they discovered that Ford's accounts payable department paid invoices based on the weight of the invoices.  They were even more amazed when they discovered how accurate the system was.

In general the EPA estimation process is pretty accurate.  And as has been pointed out the EPA only test a fraction of vehicles for sale in the US, the remainder of the ratings rely on manufacturer's estimates.

[cawimmer430]

Because that's what they think it will achieve. I am pretty sure the exact EPA test cycle is available, I am sure that when automakers publish predicted numbers it's simply the result of them running the tests themselves. The EPA tests aren't perfect, and they seem to be especially unpredictable with hybrids.

Isn't it risky giving such low ratings to the EPA? I mean why make it look like the LS600h gets the same fuel economy with more power...

[ifcar]

Isn't it risky giving such low ratings to the EPA? I mean why make it look like the LS600h gets the same fuel economy with more power...

You act as though they're making the numbers up...the two cars just seem to perform the same way on the EPA test cycle.

[cawimmer430]

You act as though they're making the numbers up...the two cars just seem to perform the same way on the EPA test cycle.

I'm totally confused here.

Or is MB doing the usual "underrate" thingy? 

[Cookie Monster]

I wonder what Wimmer will say about the S400 hybrid since he bashed the LS460h so hard.

[sportyaccordy]

I'm totally confused here.

Or is MB doing the usual "underrate" thingy? 

It won't matter once the EPA does their actual testing.

[CALL_911]

I wonder what Wimmer will say about the S400 hybrid since he bashed the LS460h so hard.

The heritage and history make the shitty fuel economy irrelevant.