Zastava Florida In L

[CaMIRO]

The other day, my Zastava inadvertently wound up where no Zastava ever has - in the Luxury forum.

So I thought I'd present this car in a more apt spot.

Presenting the Zastava Florida In L - the cheapest C-segment car (larger hatchback) built in Europe (up until November 2008)...
... and a car I guarantee no one else on this forum has ever driven.  



I picked this up, brand new, for a song, ahead of a marketing assignment from the factory. A/C, power locks, and... er... that's it.

It has now done 50,000 kilometers, with absolutely no problems save for a fuel float which at about 15,000 km failed to register the correct level (replaced under warranty).

I'm as surprised as you are. Zastava has for some time functioned under some of the worst conditions in the automotive industry since the end of World War II, when BMW built pots and pans; Toyota made fish paste, and Volkswagen turned out - nothing (until the British military stepped in).

Only recently has foreign investment (Fiat) stepped in to pull Zastava into the 21st century.



It's an older design, as you've figured out. Thing is, it's remarkably spacious; 1,280 liters of cargo capacity, with the rear seats folded. It's a packaging marvel; rear passengers have more space in here than in a new Peugeot 308 (a rather larger car). ifcar would love it.

Better yet, this thing is probably one of top three quickest cars in the world, for the money.
950 kilograms. 100 horsepower (modern, Peugeot EURO IV 1.6-liter engine). 0-60 mph in 10 seconds, and on to 190 km/h.

That's not quick in American terms, but as Wimmer will tell you, it's not bad for Europe - and in Eastern Europe, it's downright speedy.



NVH is from another era. Interior plastics are generally better than the Dacia Logan's, but fit and finish is wanting (although the metallic paint is excellent, and nothing rattles - yet).

The steering is disappointingly slow (almost 4 turns, lock-to-lock) but, somewhat by corollary, highway stability is excellent.
And it handles. I'd forgotten how much fun it is to drive a truly light car.

Before you declare me insane, take a look at what Tiff Needell had to say, for Top Gear, about this car back in 1989 (it was sold in Britain as the Yugo Sana):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCe4lQ2K08Q

And if you haven't yet seen this track video, it's worth a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzzrSuoT-M4

Twenty years later, the British press had another chance to drive this car, when I helped bring Autocar to the factory, to test the new Florida TDC, equipped with 1.4-liter HDI Euro IV diesel engine by PSA/ Peugeot-Citroen (and used by Ford, Mazda, and Toyota).

In order to get permission to use the engine, Zastava had to perform all the necessary modifications to pass Germany's TUV standards. They did some reprogramming, too; at 90 km/h, that car - the most affordable diesel in Europe - used just 3.15 liters of gasoline per 100 kilometers - an incredible result.

Either way, it was particularly gratifying to hear Autocar's Mike Duff confirm my assertions. He and a colleague drove a Slovakian-built Kia Cee'd diesel all the way to Serbia to pen the (February 2008) article, which I'll post shortly.

For the diesel, they did some damn good NVH work; Duff wrote that he thought it ran more smoothly than the Fiesta, with the same engine, he'd driven a week earlier. Some rather high praise. Either way, only a few diesels were built before Zastava moved on, with the Zastava-Fiat Punto Classic.



The real surprises are the chassis grip and linearity. Since Tiff Needell drove the first-generation car, Zastava has lowered it by about 22 millimeters, and revised the suspension geometry. As a result, on 13-inch wheels (15-inchers will fit, but alloys crack easily on these roads), I enter corners at speed, spinning between 4-5,000 rpm, lift gradually somewhat before the apex, and power out. It's a hoot, with both more enthusiastic and consistent responses than the Logan (which costs about $2,000 more, similarly equipped).

There's a base Florida (Florida In), with a domestic (Fiat) 1.3-liter engine; but the torque of the Peugeot unit makes this car come alive, even though, like most French gasoline engines, it's lazy to rev.



The Florida, Zastava's most independent project, draws its lines from a 1982 Lancia concept, penned by Giugiaro, who turned that concept into a Fiat Tipo proposal. When Fiat turned it down, Zastava engineers went to Turin, borrowed Fiat facilities, and completed the car's development. It has, roughly, a Fiat Tipo-like front suspension; a rear suspension that is a cross between a Golf II and Golf III, and a platform that is effectively a stretched Uno.





The story of the Florida's development is one of the saddest in the auto industry; I'll post it at some point. This was very much a car that should have seen much more success, but civil war put paid to that. According to my research, Yugoslavia invested the equivalent of 700 million euros in the Florida's design. The car being driven by Tiff Needell was apparently on the road until 2001, which I suppose says something.

Incidentally, marketing for Zastava was one of the more challenging auto-related jobs I've ever had. There are some really good engineers in that company, and they're particularly good at making the most of things. I noticed early on that this car seems to do best on a challenging back road between Belgrade and Kragujevac - and, hearing this, the lead chassis engineer said, "it should... that's what we tested it on during development!"

Bunch of enthusiasts, really, albeit somewhat worn down by all the political wrangling. There's a track outside the factory, and Zastava holds the patent for (oddly enough) the world's fastest driver's training device (at least, it was in 2008).



Fiat is now building Puntos at the factory in Kragujevac, Serbia, and the new Topolino will probably be built here.

[2o6]

I think this car should be brought into todays market.


Maybe a stretched Panda could work? It looks utterly cheerful.

[Submariner]

Nice pictures.  I especially like the one with the Touplev in the background.

[mzziaz]

Interesting read!

[CaMIRO]

Autocar visits Zastava, January 30-31st, 2008:



On the left - Zastava 10, or Fiat Punto II.5. Zastava began assembling it in June 2007. Now made as the Zastava-Fiat Punto Classic.

In the middle - Zastava Florida TDC (Europe's most affordable diesel car).

On the right - Kia Pro_Cee'd diesel, first off the line and direct from Slovakia.





Great people, real enthusiasts.

[thewizard16]

Good post, I do enjoy learning new things about cars and parts of the world that are unfamiliar to me.

[CaMIRO]

Zastava factory photos (I have so many of these... here's a few, for now):



In Kragujevac, all roads lead to Zastava - literally.
At every intersection, at least one sign helpfully directs you to the factory.

[CaMIRO]

A "Zastava party" photo gallery, courtesy AutoBlog:
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/zastava-party/

Zastava devotees from across the ex-Yugoslavia gather in Serbia

And a few statistics:

Through the end of production in November 2008, Zastava Automobili had, since its founding in 1953, produced more than 4.2 million cars. More than 700,000 had been exported to 76 countries, including:

- 145,511 to America
- 72,892 to Poland
- 69,932 to Britain
- 58,400 to Greece
- 29,901 to Belgium and Holland (combined)
- 19,202 to Italy
- 16,100 to Germany
- 4,471 to Spain and Portugal
- 2,473 to Syria
- 2,014 to China


Zastava began exporting cars to Poland in 1965, and to Western Europe in 1971. Exports to Britain began in 1981 (the Yugo 45 was introduced there in 1983).

The Yugo came to America in the summer of 1985.

The last Skala 55 (effectively a Fiat 128 with Zastava's own, 3rd/ 5th door on the back) left the line on November 20th, 2008, marking the last Zastava after 4.2 million built since 1955.

[Eye of the Tiger]

If 145,511 of these shitboxes were imported to America, why are you so confident in guaranteeing that nobody here has ever driven one? I bet ChrisV has owned at least two or three.

[ifcar]

If 145,511 of these shitboxes were imported to America, why are you so confident in guaranteeing that nobody here has ever driven one? I bet ChrisV has owned at least two or three.

Different model of car...

It's like saying that because many Americans have driven a Ford they've likely driven a Ford S-Max.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Different model of car...

It's like saying that because many Americans have driven a Ford they've likely driven a Ford S-Max.

Fine, smart ass. Not everyone here is American. Last time I was in Eastern Europe, I drove a whole bunch of Zastavas; one Oregon, two different Missouris, I think a West Virginia... and one of them must have been a Florida.

[CaMIRO]

Nice pictures.  I especially like the one with the Touplev in the background.

Thanks. I'm no expert on aircraft, but I'm reasonably sure that's a Caravelle. It had undercarriage trouble landing in Slovenia (then a republic of Yugoslavia) in 1972; JAT (Yugoslav Airlines - still flying after 80 years) fixed it, but rather than put it back into service, used it for training and finally parked it at the air museum (in the background), which opened in 1989.

By the way - that's one of the top 10 air museums in the world, by some estimates. Spitfires, MIGs, a few F-whatevers... couldn't tell you much more, but I do enjoy going down there. One of these days, I'll post my photos in General Talk.

I think this car should be brought into todays market.

Maybe a stretched Panda could work? It looks utterly cheerful.

I've wondered about that; you'd be amazed how much mail we used to get from people in the West who wanted one. They were usually after the Skala 55. Believe it or not, Lada is now exporting the old, square Riva to Germany again (it's called the Nova there).

Zastava hasn't *earnestly* tried exporting anywhere but Egypt (roughly 150,000 sold) since 1992. The reasons are many, and most are not related to the cars.

The modifications made to the diesel version sorted much of the NVH, but the Florida would still need about half a million euros thrown at it to get a new dashboard (designed and ready, but needs money for tooling), and to pass European side-impact crash standards.

Glad you like the looks of it; I find it charming, in a dated sort of way. It was clearly designed in the last century; but when you consider the age of the basic design, it's dated fairly well. Heuliez of France was called in to update Giugiaro's design for 2002, which is when the Florida became the "Florida In."

I used to laugh with the Zastava engineers that they'd done things backwards; what you want is a French suspension and an Italian engine, not the other way around.

BTW - this car's Golf rear suspension (with different geometry, of course, but the plot is essentially similar) was given to Zastava by Volkswagen fairly early on. VW in the late '80s made several attempts to purchase the factory, the most serious of which came in 1990. Problem was, the government wanted a 51% stake, whereas VW would give them just 49% (i.e.: Wolfsburg wanted control).

The suspension was a dowry of sorts.

Then came the Yugoslav Civil War, Volkswagen went to ?koda (which was turning out considerably fewer cars than Zastava) - and the rest is history.

GM in 2007 signed a deal with Zastava to build Opel Astras in Kragujevac, but the factory's ties to Fiat, which go back to 1953, won out.

I have many such stories. This seems like a good thread to write them all down. They really do things differently around here.

Just when you think you've begun to understand an industry...

[CaMIRO]

If 145,511 of these shitboxes were imported to America, why are you so confident in guaranteeing that nobody here has ever driven one? I bet ChrisV has owned at least two or three.

I'm talking about the Florida, specifically; not Zastavas in general.

145,511 Zastavas were sold in America. All were Yugos.
More Zastavas were exported, for testing purposes.
3, as far as I know, were Floridas.

I'll bet anything you wish that no one here ever drove one of those.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I'm talking about the Florida, specifically; not Zastavas in general.

145,511 Zastavas were sold in America. All were Yugos.
More Zastavas were exported, for testing purposes.
3, as far as I know, were Floridas.

I'll bet anything you wish that no one here ever drove one of those.

I'll bet Swift can run circles around Florida 

[CaMIRO]

I'll bet Swift can run circles around Florida 

We've had this discussion before.

[Eye of the Tiger]

We've had this discussion before.

Swift has no need for training wheels. 

[Colin]

Interesting article.

I was surprised to see just 2 of these cars in my recent week in Dalmatia 9and they both eluded my camera), whereas the old Skala and Korals were pretty evident everywhere I went.

They were sold in the Uk for a couple of years, before the troubles, but I don't think many were bought and I'd be surprised if even a double digit number of them remain now. Whilst the Guigiaro styling was quite tidy, they were castigated for terrible build quality, and they were not as cheap as other eastern Europe stuff at the time.............. somewhere among my huge collection of motoring mags, I will have the Road Test that Autocar published.

[CaMIRO]

Swift has no need for training wheels.  

The wheels you see in parts of that clip are attached to a driver's training device used (among other things) for inducing drifting in front-wheel-drive cars.

I was surprised to see just 2 of these cars in my recent week in Dalmatia 9and they both eluded my camera), whereas the old Skala and Korals were pretty evident everywhere I went.

In the end, just 35,000 were built.
Versus roughly 800,000 Korals and more than 1.5 million Skalas.

At launch, the Florida was pretty nifty. It would tell you which door was open, which light bulb had burned out, etc. It looked a lot like a Citroen ZX, a good year before the ZX showed up.

Then, when things turned sour, they simply decontented it and kept on building, albeit for a much smaller market - and even that market didn't want a car perceived as a shadow of its former self.

Two basic tenets apply here;
1. You have but one shot at launching a car (which is one of the reasons manufacturers are so cagey about leaks and spy shots). The Florida was introduced just before the war took its market away, and it never recovered.

2. It is better to have had nothing to begin with, than to have fallen from a lofty perch. They tell me that's an old Jewish proverb; and people here use it frequently when talking about Zastava.

[CaMIRO]

Fine, smart ass. Not everyone here is American. Last time I was in Eastern Europe, I drove a whole bunch of Zastavas; one Oregon, two different Missouris, I think a West Virginia... and one of them must have been a Florida.

There are two different stories - from within the factory itself - about how the car was named.

The first is that, after more than 40,000 Yugos were sold in the U.S. in the car's first year, they wanted to celebrate their success.
The Yugo is easy to laugh at, because it was so cheap, and because people still (wrongly) think it came from the Eastern Bloc (of which Yugoslavia was never a part). Thing is, in an old Automotive News article I found, a Hyundai executive admits, "we're watching Yugo." Zastava in the U.S. took five years to sell what Peugeot, Alfa Romeo, Renault, Sterling, Fiat, Lancia (... the list goes on) took several times longer, in some cases, to match, by volume numbers. The price, obviously, was responsible for much of it; but t'was worth writing home about, nonetheless. And they went Stateside even though Fiat (longtime Zastava partner, pulled out in 1983, I believe) warned them not to...

The competing theory is that the name was a marketingspeak reference to sunbathing. It seems that this car, at the time, was one of the "glassiest" designs around, and the people who finished Giugiaro's design wanted something to, erm, reflect that.
Visibility is excellent, but I seem to have the (rather good - Delphi) A/C on all the time...

[cawimmer430]

Wow, Miro! I knew your taste in cars was always a bit against the wind but this is simply incredible because of the rarity. 

And yep, the performance of such a car is perfectly adequate for Europe and elsewhere.

What happened to your Renault Fuego? I have not read your story here yet (will do so ASAP) so forgive me if it is mentioned in there somewhere.

[nickdrinkwater]

Interesting thread, especially having myself read that Autocar article you refer to last year.

I always thought the Zastava (Yugo to us) wasn't a bad looking car.  It reminds me a little of the ZX my father used to own.  There's something quite appealing about it; none of the over-complexity, weight of more modern designs.

[Raza]

Interesting read, Miro. 

Hey, stick around this time!

[Galaxy]

Thanks. I'm no expert on aircraft, but I'm reasonably sure that's a Caravelle. It had undercarriage trouble landing in Slovenia (then a republic of Yugoslavia) in 1972; JAT (Yugoslav Airlines - still flying after 80 years) fixed it, but rather than put it back into service, used it for training and finally parked it at the air museum (in the background), which opened in 1989.

By the way - that's one of the top 10 air museums in the world, by some estimates. Spitfires, MIGs, a few F-whatevers... couldn't tell you much more, but I do enjoy going down there. One of these days, I'll post my photos in General Talk.

You are correct on the aircraft type.

The museum you're talking about is the Belgrade aviation museum? That got international fame by being the only museum in the world to display an F-117 Nighthawk. Well what is left of one after it gets SAMed.













I read this post with interest.

[ifcar]

The name of this car had been reminding me of something since I heard it. It's finally come to me:

Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfern-schplenden-schlitter-crasscrenbon-fried-digger-dingle-dangle-dongle-dungle-burstein von knacker-thrasher-apple-banger-horowitz-ticolensic-grander knotty-spelltinkle-grandlich-grumblemeyer-spelterwasser-kurstlich-himbleeisen-bahnwagen-gutenabend-bitte-ein-n?rnburger-bratwustle-gerspurten-mitz-weimache-luber-hundsfut-gumberaber-sh?nedanker-kalbsfleisch-mittler-aucher von Hautkopft of Ulm.

[CaMIRO]

Back when the Yugo was first imported to the U.S., in the Summer of '85, Malcolm Bricklin said that he'd win if he could get budget buyers to feel smart about their choice.

Nearly a quarter-century later, they managed it; if my experience is anything to go by (and if you'd rather drive a car than fondle its dashboard).

In recent years, Zastava made this car available in two versions: 1.3 (Florida In, domestic engine) and 1.6 (Florida In L, Peugeot engine). In typical Zastava fashion, the 100-horsepower, 1.6-liter model was never marketed properly, so fairly few people knew it was even available; and fewer still are aware of its abilities. I get a particular thrill out of dusting base BMW 1 series (plastic hubcaps, single exhaust pipe) at traffic lights...

A guy in an E38 BMW 740i, with Austrian plates, had a heart attack when I tailed him at, first, 150 km/h, then 160... 170... 180 km/h, for about 40 miles down the highway. He finally moved to the right, watched me pass in astonishment, then followed me into a gas station and asked, "what the hell...?" Sure, he'd have won had he nailed it; but he was lost as to how something at this end of the food chain could run at that speed.

The police here use Peugeot 307s with this same engine. Last Christmas, I found a group of them sitting at a local restaurant, at about 3am. I'd talked to some of them before about the work I was doing for Zastava, and I'd pointed out that the political machinations which had put them into Peugeots (a separate story) were fairly disingenuous, given that they'd hardly be able to catch me if I decided to run from them. Inevitably, they closed off one of the roads (early morning hours, holiday weekend, fairly relaxed Balkan cops   ), and we lined up. Suffice to say that they paid for my coffee, although I'm sure they're still convinced that I'd swapped the original engine out.

It was particularly neat to meet the people who did the actual design work. There's an annoying amount of bureaucracy at Zastava, for what is effectively a small company, but it's still fairly easy to take, say, the suspension engineer out for a beer. Some great stories about testing Yugos in Pecos, Texas, way back when.

Aside from the fuel economy, the best part is the servicing costs. The block and head are Peugeot, but everything else is domestic. A colleague bought a used one after I'd talked his ear off about it. It was a fleet car that had done 50,000 kilometers over some rough roads down south, and it needed a freshening. He went overboard, but I would have too, given the prices:

front springs and struts
rear springs and shock absorbers
exhaust pipe (starting to corrode)
front calipers, rotors, pads
rear drums, pads
spark plugs
oil & filter
gearbox oil
air filter
fuel filter

All for 23,000 Serbian dinars, parts & labor, at an authorized dealer (who washed the car before returning it).
That's $360.



Plus four brand new tires for 11,000 ($170).



These days, I run marketing for a company that has a fleet of about 30 cars. Last year, they replaced two of the Zastavas with Hyundai Getz models, only to find the two Hyundais considerably slower and bumpier, and needing considerably more work at 40,000 kilometers (who replaces spark plug wires at that mileage, anyway?) Unlike my colleague, these guys don't worry about struts and shocks; but one of the Hyundais actually needed to be towed to the dealer on three separate occasions.

The A/C in a Getz is worthless on anything but a downhill grade, too.

Don't get me wrong; this car could never sell in the U.S., as is; but I do enjoy it. I toyed with the idea of replacing it with a Peugeot 308 THP recently; 150-horsepower turbocharged engine, shared with BMW. Decent car, and a nice, pliant ride. It just didn't feel like it was worth 3 Zastavas.

My expectations are now completely skewed - and that's about the best compliment I could pay this car.

[CaMIRO]

And by the way, Wimmer, the Renault was an 18i - the fuel-injected, American version of the 18 (Fuego's sedan sister).









I sold it to a Renault enthusiast whose knees began knocking at the very sight of it. I know of just two other sedans in the U.S. that were in similar shape, both of them down south.

It seemed unfair to let it sit unused during my sojourn in Europe, and I was already feeling guilty about having kept it as a garage queen for the 5 years or so that I'd had it.

I once called Renault in France to trace down the part number for an alternator (it kept chewing them up until I learned to switch from Paris-Rhone to Ducellier). In my best French, I began, "I'm calling from the U.S. about an 18i I have..."

The guy on the other end stopped me ("attends, attends!"), paused, and said ... "it still runs?"



A flawed car in many ways, but possibly the most comfortable compact sedan I have ever driven.





The Renault 18 was once Renault's second best-seller ever, after the R5 (really illustrates the difference between European and American tastes, eh?)

The car was made in Yugoslavia as the Renault 18 TLJ, so I've seen quite a few 18s in Serbia.
Even an immaculate Turbo.
But alas, I have not the garage space.  

[Raza]

Is your Camaro still knocking about?

[CaMIRO]

Is your Camaro still knocking about?

But of course.

[cawimmer430]

Beautiful car, especially with that color-rims combination. 

There is just something about French cars from that era in terms of design that I find attractive.

[CaMIRO]

Beautiful car, especially with that color-rims combination.  

I searched low and high for that Ansa muffler, and those wheels... the Italians made them for Renault, although I don't think they were ever offered by the actual dealerships. I found them in the garage of a guy who also had a Renault Alliance racecar (he'd worked for Renault in the '80s).

The wheels match the graphic design of the C-pillar, and the graphics in general are fairly '70s. I'm surprised you find it attractive. Whereas Peugeots of that era were done by Pininfarina, and tended to be quite pretty, Renault styling seemed to strive for "weirdly utilitarian."

This was the 18's predecessor:


R12

As you might imagine, Americans didn't like it one bit. So Renault decided to tone things down, launching the R18 in 1977 under the theme, "Meeting International Requirements."

Not an auspicious start, really. Mind you, I suppose it was a neat design, and I've always liked it, personally; although the bits and pieces AMC added to it rather spoiled the effect.

This is what it looked like at its best:


Renault 18 Turbo

Trouble was, Renault eventually toned things down too much. The R21, successor to the R18, was simply bland.



So they brought in Patrick le Qu?ment to lead the way back to interesting cars. And we got these...







For a while, Renault was the cool mainstream brand. The Megane Scenic had truly created a new category; the Renault Sport Spider was plain madness (imagine - a mainstream manufacturer building a car with no windshield); the Clio V6 was a hatchback with cargo space full of engine, and the Twingo was the Citroen 2CV of the '90s.

Then they went too far.







So now, they've throttled back again, with a rather humdrum Laguna and Megane.

I don't expect it to last...