12 cylinders on a reasonable budget

[GoCougs]

Depends on what you want a second car for.  Lets compare and this is just one man's opinion.

10 year old Camry                                                 69 Jaguar E-type

Still depreciating                                                   Appreciating

Not much fun to work on                                        Fun to work on (hey, it's a hobby)

Will never turn heads or win a concours                    4 time Jaguar Clubs of North America National Champion
                                                                         and I've had people pull up beside me on the highway
                                                                         with cameras clicking away (others enjoy seeing it on the road)
                                                                         I've been invited to show my car at concours which gave me the opportunity
                                                                         to meet people like Buzz Aldrin, Sterling Moss, Ed Hermann and Cliff Robertson.

Dated looks                                                         Usually in the top 5 on any best looking car of all time list

Cheap to insure                                                    Cheaper to insure (believe it or not, full coverage under $200/yr)

Cheap to operate                                                  Expensive to operate and maintain by comparison, 18-22 MPG, $6,000 to rebuild the engine
                                                                         $7,000 for a bare metal respray, $3,000 for an interior kit. Am I upside down investment wise?
                                                                         I have the receipts but never bothered to add them up, it doesn't matter to me.

Fun to Drive? Beats me, never driven one.                 Goes without saying.

Ownership experience:   ??                                     Priceless. You only have one shot at life on this planet, why reduce your time here to a
                                                                         set of equations? 



                 


My last post in this topic.

Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?

[Byteme]

Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?

From where I sit I'd ask "Who'd buy one at all"?

Neither a Camry or Accord would be my first choice, new or used.

[Vinsanity]

Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?

I believe plenty of people drive them around as beaters; it's commonplace in the s2ki community, for example

[S204STi]

[ChrisV]

Actually, I do hate to admit it, but owning a 10-year-old Camcord still makes more sense than owning a 10-year-old V12 S-class or 7-series...

So does riding the bus or even a bicycle. But that doesn't mean anything in this conversation.

A 10 year old Camcord MAY be reliable, but then again, it MAY not.

A 10 year old 750iL May be unreliable, then again, it MAY not.

And surprisingly a lot of the similar parts that can break cost very similar amounts of money.

BUT..

a 10 year old Camcord, unlike Coug's reasoning for buying a NEWER Camcord, will not give the luxury features or performance, and none of them will give the style, or steering/braking feel. it's only saving grace is that it costs less, but you can get that in any old economy car and still be better served by the bus.

So lets tell all the non-enthusiasts to ride the bus, and open up the motorways to those of us who want to be there and actually enjoy driving.

[Vinsanity]

A 10 year old Camcord MAY be reliable, but then again, it MAY not.

A 10 year old 750iL May be unreliable, then again, it MAY not.

Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...

...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...

...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.

A 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.

[S204STi]

A 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.

This is true, IMO, particularly in the sense that generally everything goes to hell right around that mileage anyway on a vehicle, plus if maintenance was spotty or you got a Camry with the oil sludging issues, yeah that could be a problem waiting to happen.

[Vinsanity]

A 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.

Sure, but can you say the same thing for the Swift vs. Audi V8Q?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Sure, but can you say the same thing for the Swift vs. Audi V8Q?

Actually, no. Without a rebuild, the Swift would have blown itself up long before 150k, while the V8Q was still going strong at 260k.

[J86]

Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...

...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.

Wrong question methinks...what year Camry could you buy with the money you'd spend on a 1999 750...

[sportyaccordy]

Sure, but can you say the same thing for the Swift vs. Audi V8Q?

I'm sure the V8Q was solid... problems were prob more in the electrics

[Eye of the Tiger]

I'm sure the V8Q was solid... problems were prob more in the electrics

Every time it's brought up, you guys make wild assumptions about how much of a nightmare it was. It wasn't. The reason I got rid of it was because I wasn't going to have any opportunity to work on it myself, and paying someone else to do it was out of the question - the big problem was the brakes, but all the other stuff was pretty gee-whiz. Between that and the worthless Escort, I didn't have a car that was legal to drive. $120 inspection violations really start adding up after a while, plus it's annoying getting pulled over every day. So, I sucked it up and very sadly took the V8Q to an Audi guy and traded him for a Jetta, which passed inspection without too much fuss.  Maybe I should post this story in my sig so people will stop being such jackholes about it. If I lived in a state that didn't have communist inspection laws,, or shit, if i just ahd a goddamn garage to work in, I would still be a V8Q owner. Fuck Maine. Fuck apartment living.

[CJ]

Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?

Our Camry is 9 years old.  It's a second car. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

10 year old cars aren't nearly as bad as they used to be

[Rupert]

10 year old cars aren't nearly as bad as they used to be

Mine are nice.

[Laconian]

15 years here, doin' just fine...

[omicron]

I approve of V8 Quattros and V12 Jaguars, but do not approve of communists or objective subjective personal aggregate individual experience hearsay.

What was I on about again?

[sportyaccordy]

Every time it's brought up, you guys make wild assumptions about how much of a nightmare it was. It wasn't. The reason I got rid of it was because I wasn't going to have any opportunity to work on it myself, and paying someone else to do it was out of the question - the big problem was the brakes, but all the other stuff was pretty gee-whiz. Between that and the worthless Escort, I didn't have a car that was legal to drive. $120 inspection violations really start adding up after a while, plus it's annoying getting pulled over every day. So, I sucked it up and very sadly took the V8Q to an Audi guy and traded him for a Jetta, which passed inspection without too much fuss.  Maybe I should post this story in my sig so people will stop being such jackholes about it. If I lived in a state that didn't have communist inspection laws,, or shit, if i just ahd a goddamn garage to work in, I would still be a V8Q owner. Fuck Maine. Fuck apartment living.

Hey man I didn't know the story or assume you had made a bad purchase or w/e. Trust me I know how it is. If I didn't have a good friend as a mechanic I would not be able to keep my car either. Shit happens

Those V8Q brakes are killer. Calipers in the rotors? I guess that's the only way they could get them so big under those tiny ass wheels. Very cool cars though. Was yours stickshift?

[ChrisV]

Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...

...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.

From what I've seen, the failures on these cars tend to be a number of smaller items. No catastrophic mechanical failures, so no, the chances not greater that you'll have catastrophic mechanical failure. Now, failure of one of those myriad of luxury features, front suspension bushing wobbles, alternator... yes, there is a greater possibility. But you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. Highway accidents are of very high probability. Does that stop you from getting on the road?

You might speculate, postulate, and try to lay out probabilities, but look at my sig. I don't have just my experience to go by for these particular cars.

And you could run probablities all youy want, and still buy that Camry that the owner never changed the oil in and have sludge kill the engine 2000 miles after you buy it. Again, independant Honda and Toyota shops wouldn't be in business very long if these cars didn't break as much as anything else.

Oh, I've done a brake job on a 150k mile '99 Accord. Requires disassembling a lot of the front suspension and axle due to being FWD. it's time consuming and expensive; I also did a complete brake job on my 740i at about the same mileage. Cheap and fast, even with the Akebono Euro ceramic pads and Brembo OEM replacement rotors and pad sensors.

[ChrisV]

10 year old cars aren't nearly as bad as they used to be

My 740 is 11 years old. 178k miles, and should be good to 300k. I just saw one for sale with 350k miles on it.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Hey man I didn't know the story or assume you had made a bad purchase or w/e. Trust me I know how it is. If I didn't have a good friend as a mechanic I would not be able to keep my car either. Shit happens

Those V8Q brakes are killer. Calipers in the rotors? I guess that's the only way they could get them so big under those tiny ass wheels. Very cool cars though. Was yours stickshift?

No stickshift... if it had been a stickshift, that may have been incentive enough for me to go to some extremes to keep it.
As for the brakes, mine actually had a conversion to more conventional, but smaller and cheaper G60 brakes; but that had been done so long ago that nearly every component needed replacing. It's the government's fault for using so much salt on the roads. What's wrong with sand and studded tires? I'd rather they mandate studded tires and stop rotting out everyone's cars, but they don't care. They'd rather rot out people's brake lines every 3-5 years than slightly increase wear on the roads.

[ChrisV]

Wrong question methinks...what year Camry could you buy with the money you'd spend on a 1999 750...

Looks like, after an auto trader search, you could get a 2005 4 cyl LE. Yeah, THAT's a comparable car. Fast as the 750? No. Handles as good? No. Brakes as good? maybe (though pedal feel may be poorer in the Toyota) Luxury features? No. Fuel mileage? yeah, the Camry will have the win there.

The question that started the thread was NOT gee, how does an older V12 car compare to a newer economy sedan.

Cougs started the comparo by stating a more expensive, new V6 Camcord would have the same or greater performance and luxury. If you move down to a much older, cheaper Camcord, to make prices be inline between the two, you lose all the performance/luxury advantage that was trotted out as the reason to buy a Camcord over a used luxury sport sedan. Which means comparing them becomes mind numbingly meaningless. Much like a boring, vanilla appliance is supposed to be.

[ChrisV]

No stickshift... if it had been a stickshift, that may have been incentive enough for me to go to some extremes to keep it.
As for the brakes, mine actually had a conversion to more conventional, but smaller and cheaper G60 brakes; but that had been done so long ago that nearly every component needed replacing. It's the government's fault for using so much salt on the roads. What's wrong with sand and studded tires? I'd rather they mandate studded tires and stop rotting out everyone's cars, but they don't care. They'd rather rot out people's brake lines every 3-5 years than slightly increase wear on the roads.

Yeah, that's what I miss about living back in Washington State. non-rusty undercarriages on cars newer than 25-30 years old. Cars that are still daily drivers decades after they've ceased to exist on the east coast.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Yeah, that's what I miss about living back in Washington State. non-rusty undercarriages on cars newer than 25-30 years old. Cars that are still daily drivers decades after they've ceased to exist on the east coast.

This is the car hell of America, and I can't wait to move out.

[omicron]

On a more interesting topic, are there noticeable performance and flexibility gains to be had in a standard E38 with the 5.4 V12 over the 4.4 V8?

[Eye of the Tiger]

On a more interesting topic, are there noticeable performance and flexibility gains to be had in a standard E38 with the 5.4 V12 over the 4.4 V8?

Let's take a look at some actual figures from a year 2000 7-series:


                                       4.4L 282 hp V8               5.4L 326 hp V12
Horsepower                         282 @ 5400 RPM            326 @ 5000 RPM
Torque (lb-ft)                     324 @ 3700 RPM            361 @ 3900 RPM
Awesomeness                     501 @ 4200 RPM              Infinity @ 1 RPM
Valves/Valve Configuration    32/DOHC                      24/SOHC
Displacement (cc)               4398                             5379
Bore X Stroke (in.)             3.62 X 3.26                     3.35 X 3.11
Compression Ratio             10.0:1                          10.0:1
Fuel Type/System             Gas/SEFI                       Gas/SEFI
5-Speed Automatic Overdrive   15 / 21 mpg             13 / 20 mpg


As you can see, the V12 has Infinity Awesomeness at a very low RPM, while the peaky V8 only makes 501, and quite a bit higher in the rev range.

[omicron]

Let's take a look at some actual figures from a year 2000 7-series:


                                        4.4L 282 hp V8               5.4L 326 hp V12
Horsepower                         282 @ 5400 RPM            326 @ 5000 RPM
Torque (lb-ft)                     324 @ 3700 RPM            361 @ 1000 RPM
Awesomeness                     501 @ 4200 RPM              Infinity @ 1 RPM
Valves/Valve Configuration    32/DOHC                      24/SOHC
Displacement (cc)               4398                             5379
Bore X Stroke (in.)             3.62 X 3.26                     3.35 X 3.11
Compression Ratio             10.0:1                          10.0:1
Fuel Type/System             Gas/SEFI                       Gas/SEFI
5-Speed Automatic Overdrive   15 / 21 mpg             13 / 20 mpg


As you can see, the V12 has Infinity Awesomeness at a very low RPM, while the peaky V8 only makes 501, and quite a bit higher in the rev range.

I've been looking for low-rpm awesomeness, and now it is clear that I can get infinity levels of awesomeness in a 750iL! Thank you so much.

[Eye of the Tiger]

My mistake; somehow the torque peak got changed from 3900 to 1000.

[omicron]

My mistake; somehow the torque peak got changed from 3900 to 1000.

It is not a torque peak - it is a torque plateau from 1000-6000rpm!