Saab Story

[MX793]

My bad, I always assumed they were.

I believe they may have pulled out of the US market for a while, but they were still producing one or two models at any given time in Europe.

[Raza]

I'm a big fan of all of the older Saabs. 96, 99, 900... Awesome. But the only thing they've made since the 900 was discontinued that I like was the Viggen. It's a sad thing in the sense that it's sad that they ended up sucking enough to have to close shop.

The Viggen was one of the most magical cars I've ever driven.  I've driven many cars, and many of those cars quite hard, and with very few of those cars can I sit on my sofa, close my eyes, and be transported back into the driver's seat, back on the roads, smell the leather; the Viggen is one of those few.  

[ifcar]

Historically VW wasn't a luxury brand. But come on, their midsize sedan MSRPs for $27K for a stripped base model ($7-10K more for a decent package) and their SUV for $41K stripped (figure $7K more for a decent package). That's pretty much the same as Acura and pretty close to where an A4 starts.

I know the international market is different, but the majority of VWs I see are Passat and Touaregs, not little Rabbits and New Beetles.

VW's only strong seller in the US is the Jetta -- it nearly outsells every other car in the line combined. Base price: $17,605. Volkswagen has sold about as many Passats (10,000) this year as Toyota sells Camrys in a week and a half.

[TurboDan]

VW's only strong seller in the US is the Jetta -- it nearly outsells every other car in the line combined. Base price: $17,605. Volkswagen has sold about as many Passats (10,000) this year as Toyota sells Camrys in a week and a half.

What do sales matter? We're talking about whether the brand can be classified as luxury or not? Their SUV goes for $40K and their midsizer sells for about $30K. That's at least in the same category as Acura, which is classified as entry-lux. As far as the Jetta goes, it's rare that I see a stripped entry model - most have auto trans., leather, premium sound. That would push the price on par with what the RSX sold for.

The Passat sells for the same as the TSX. The Touareg is identical in price to the MDX and the Jetta is generally on par with what Acura's similar-sized vehicle (RSX) cost when it was on the market.

[ifcar]

What do sales matter? We're talking about whether the brand can be classified as luxury or not? Their SUV goes for $40K and their midsizer sells for about $30K. That's at least in the same category as Acura, which is classified as entry-lux. As far as the Jetta goes, it's rare that I see a stripped entry model - most have auto trans., leather, premium sound. That would push the price on par with what the RSX sold for.

The Passat sells for the same as the TSX. The Touareg is identical in price to the MDX and the Jetta is generally on par with what Acura's similar-sized vehicle (RSX) cost when it was on the market.

My point is that VW cannot live on these expensive products; no one buys them. Its lifeblood is the economy car market -- with a product that's upscale for an economy car, yes, but an economy car no less. VW is only halfheartedly selling the Passat and is about to discontinue it in the US in favor of a bigger Jetta, and it's about to bring over the subcompact Polo to slot below the Golf. This is not luxury.

[Raza]

My point is that VW cannot live on these expensive products; no one buys them. Its lifeblood is the economy car market -- with a product that's upscale for an economy car, yes, but an economy car no less. VW is only halfheartedly selling the Passat and is about to discontinue it in the US in favor of a bigger Jetta, and it's about to bring over the subcompact Polo to slot below the Golf. This is not luxury.

And BMW survives on its cheaper models as well.

This is not a surprise. 

[2o6]

I dunno Raza, there's a difference between a Civic competitor and a entry-level luxury car.

[ifcar]

And BMW survives on its cheaper models as well.

This is not a surprise. 

A) BMW's cheapest models have luxury car pricing, whereas Volkswagen's do not.
B) BMW also sells a high volume of very pricey 5-Serieses and X5s, while VW sells only its cheapest product in significant volume.

[TurboDan]

My point is that VW cannot live on these expensive products; no one buys them. Its lifeblood is the economy car market -- with a product that's upscale for an economy car, yes, but an economy car no less. VW is only halfheartedly selling the Passat and is about to discontinue it in the US in favor of a bigger Jetta, and it's about to bring over the subcompact Polo to slot below the Golf. This is not luxury.

OK, so in a few years they might not be an entry-lux brand. I'd say that given their model range at this point, they are.

[ifcar]

OK, so in a few years they might not be an entry-lux brand. I'd say that given their model range at this point, they are.

Anyone can offer a pricey product, but it doesn't turn them into a luxury brand if no one buys it. Based on its sales volume, Volkswagen is first and foremost a vendor of economy cars that also happens to offer some expensive ones.

[Raza]

Anyone can offer a pricey product, but it doesn't turn them into a luxury brand if no one buys it. Based on its sales volume, Volkswagen is first and foremost a vendor of economy cars that also happens to offer some expensive ones.

That are built to as high or higher standards as many entry or near luxury vehicles....

My Passat had a better put together and higher quality interior than my E320 which cost twice as much.  

EDIT:  And even Volkswagen's more mundane models are noted as having higher quality interiors than their competitors.  "Premium mainstream" and "near luxury" are practically synonyms. 

[Raza]

A) BMW's cheapest models have luxury car pricing, whereas Volkswagen's do not.
B) BMW also sells a high volume of very pricey 5-Serieses and X5s, while VW sells only its cheapest product in significant volume.

A) That's irrelevant.  BMWs in other countries are also sold at very low prices and do compete with Volkswagens.

B) Also irrelevant.  Volkswagen has competed with companies like BMW and Mercedes at the highest level.  Volvo, Saab, and Acura have never produced a 12 cylinder car.  Volkswagen has. 

[Rupert]

Bullshit, Raza. VW is not a near luxury brand. It may be more luxurious than the People's Car of old, but so is everything else. If VW is a luxury brand, then Toyota is a sports car brand.

[ifcar]

A) That's irrelevant.  BMWs in other countries are also sold at very low prices and do compete with Volkswagens.

B) Also irrelevant.  Volkswagen has competed with companies like BMW and Mercedes at the highest level.  Volvo, Saab, and Acura have never produced a 12 cylinder car.  Volkswagen has. 

Is Hyundai more of a luxury brand than Acura, Volvo, or Saab because it sells a RWD V8 luxury sedan?

BMW is a mainstream brand in some markets. But not in this one. Volkswagen sells nice economy cars, but they aren't selling a luxury car for $17,000.

[MX793]

VW is a rarity in the North American market in that it is a full-line brand that sells cars in many segments all under the VW badge.  Hyundai is probably the only other brand that does the same in this market.  Other automakers have specific marques for different segments.  Toyota created Lexus to market their higher end models in America rather than trying to sell both mainstream cars and high-end luxury models under one badge.  Nissan and Honda did the same.  Ford and GM use their various brands to cater to specific market segments (Chevies are mainstream, Caddies are high end).

As such, I wouldn't consider VW a premium or entry-lux marque.  They sell some premium and entry lux models, but the whole brand isn't devoted to those segments in this market (unlike BMW, Acura, Lexus or Mercedes).

[Raza]

"NEAR" luxury.

Jesus, fuck, I'm not saying a Rabbit competes with an S550...

I'm saying that Volkswagen competes with Saab, Volvo, and Acura.  If you don't think it does, then please talk to buyers of those marques and see what cars they also looked at when shopping. 

[2o6]

I'm pretty sure Saab, Volvo, and Acura owners looked at camcords, too.


The only "premium" products they have is the CC and the Toureag. Really, just the Touraeg.

[ifcar]

"NEAR" luxury.

Jesus, fuck, I'm not saying a Rabbit competes with an S550...

I'm saying that Volkswagen competes with Saab, Volvo, and Acura.  If you don't think it does, then please talk to buyers of those marques and see what cars they also looked at when shopping.  

Brands don't compete. Individual products compete. Volkswagen's primary product for the most part does not compete with Saab or Volvo -- the price difference is significant -- and I see no intersection at all between the Jetta and any current Acura.

As you seem to describe it, any brand can be near-luxury as long as it has one expensive product. Toyota is near-luxury with the Avalon and the Land Cruiser. People no doubt shop loaded Accords against Acuras, so it's near luxury. The Nissan Maxima and Murano get pricey, so Nissan is a near-luxury brand...

[Rupert]

"NEAR" luxury.

Jesus, fuck, I'm not saying a Rabbit competes with an S550...

I'm saying that Volkswagen competes with Saab, Volvo, and Acura.  If you don't think it does, then please talk to buyers of those marques and see what cars they also looked at when shopping. 

They have a car or two that compete in the near-luxury segment, but they are not a near luxury brand. Just like Mazda has cars that compete in the sports car segment, but they are not a sports car brand.

[the Teuton]

Oh, I think Ford is a sports car powerhouse because it sold the world beating Ford GT and it sells a million different versions of the Mustang.

VW is a premium mainstream offering, and the only reason that designation exists is because that company has priced its bread and butter cars out of the market. It needed to redefine itself because of the weak dollar, but a BMW competitor it is generally not.

[Byteme]

Apparently yesterday Spyker submitted another bid for Saab.  Seems like anything remotely reasonable would be better for GM rather than just letting the marque die off.

[TurboDan]

Apparently yesterday Spyker submitted another bid for Saab.  Seems like anything remotely reasonable would be better for GM rather than just letting the marque die off.

Yeah. It seems like the argument is making SOME money versus NO money on Saab.

[dazzleman]

Yeah. It seems like the argument is making SOME money versus NO money on Saab.

I would agree.  Since Saab appears not to be viable for GM, they should sell it for whatever they can get, as opposed to shutting it down and getting nothing.

[mzziaz]

I would agree.  Since Saab appears not to be viable for GM, they should sell it for whatever they can get, as opposed to shutting it down and getting nothing.

I think they worry about getting a new competitor, though. Especially the new 9-5 could steal a lot of other GM sales.

[dazzleman]

I think they worry about getting a new competitor, though. Especially the new 9-5 could steal a lot of other GM sales.

They weren't worried about cannibalizing their own sales when they owned Saab?  That really makes no sense, but I have no doubt they may be thinking it.  If the way they thought at GM made any sense, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in.

[TurboDan]

I think they worry about getting a new competitor, though. Especially the new 9-5 could steal a lot of other GM sales.

Which GM brand would compete with Saab? Cadillac doesn't make any small, premium vehicles. The smallest is the CTS, which seems quite hulking to me compared to slimmer European entry-lux vehicles.

[ifcar]

Which GM brand would compete with Saab? Cadillac doesn't make any small, premium vehicles. The smallest is the CTS, which seems quite hulking to me compared to slimmer European entry-lux vehicles.

The 9-5 is midsize, but I don't see any significant loss of sales to it from other GM offerings. Even its total volume would still be firmly in the niche category.

[Raza]

Brands don't compete. Individual products compete. Volkswagen's primary product for the most part does not compete with Saab or Volvo -- the price difference is significant -- and I see no intersection at all between the Jetta and any current Acura.

As you seem to describe it, any brand can be near-luxury as long as it has one expensive product. Toyota is near-luxury with the Avalon and the Land Cruiser. People no doubt shop loaded Accords against Acuras, so it's near luxury. The Nissan Maxima and Murano get pricey, so Nissan is a near-luxury brand...

You don't think the TSX and Jetta or Passat are cross-shopped?  I cross-shopped the TSX with both of those for my past two car purchases.

[mzziaz]

Which GM brand would compete with Saab? Cadillac doesn't make any small, premium vehicles. The smallest is the CTS, which seems quite hulking to me compared to slimmer European entry-lux vehicles.

In Europe, I would think Opel would be the most obvious competitor. A lot of the parts would be similar too, I presume.

[Raza]

Oh, I think Ford is a sports car powerhouse because it sold the world beating Ford GT and it sells a million different versions of the Mustang.

VW is a premium mainstream offering, and the only reason that designation exists is because that company has priced its bread and butter cars out of the market. It needed to redefine itself because of the weak dollar, but a BMW competitor it is generally not.

No one claims it is.