2011 Mustang GT 5.0

[SVT666]

A couple even bet their happiness on it, and are now as a result of the Camaro's success absolutely miserable on teh Innernets.

Wow.  You have a really warped view of things Troll.

[Cobra93]

December 2010 sales figures:

Camaro: 5,614
Mustang: 5,452
Challenger: 3,330

2010 sales figures:

Camaro: 81,299
Mustang: 73,716
Challenger: 36,719

Kudos to GM for stepping up the competition and building a popular car.  Maybe if they sell enough of them, they won't need to use my money to bail them out. As for me, I simply bought the best ponycar available. It doesn't make sense to me to base buying decisions on popularity, since the vast majority of the public is stupid. If I adopted that approach, I'd be watching American Idol, listening to Justin Bieber and eating Big Macs.

[GoCougs]

Yeah, that GM is still on the government dole keeps me from considering the best pony car available, and the biggest Detroit product success story of the last few years, that is the Camaro. If/when the government divests itself fully of GM ownership it may be an option - could be as early as 2012. Not only will the GT500-besting Z28 then be available (probably too much car for me), by then the Camaro SS will have 450 - 475 hp and an optional lower rear gear ratio putting it way out ahead.

[SVT666]

Yeah, that GM is still on the government dole keeps me from considering the best pony car available,

When everyone who has actually driven the cars disagrees with you, I have no idea how you keep coming to that conclusion.  Troll.

[Cobra93]

Yeah, that GM is still on the government dole keeps me from considering the best pony car available, and the biggest Detroit product success story of the last few years, that is the Camaro.

  At this point I can only conclude that sometime in your past a Ford ran over your puppy.

[GoCougs]

  At this point I can only conclude that sometime in your past a Ford ran over your puppy.

Because my opinion is different than yours?

[Cobra93]

Because my opinion is different than yours?

Oh! Since it's just your opinion, try this:

Yeah, that GM is still on the government dole keeps me from considering IMO the  best pony car available, and the biggest Detroit product success story of the last few years, that is the Camaro.

Now we're good.

[GoCougs]

Now we're good.

And let's try this:

Kudos to GM for stepping up the competition and building a popular car.  Maybe if they sell enough of them, they won't need to use my money to bail them out. As for me, I simply bought IMO the best ponycar available. It doesn't make sense to me to base buying decisions on popularity, since the vast majority of the public is stupid. If I adopted that approach, I'd be watching American Idol, listening to Justin Bieber and eating Big Macs.

NOW we're all good. 

[3.0L V6]

Yeah, that GM is still on the government dole keeps me from considering the best pony car available, and the biggest Detroit product success story of the last few years, that is the Camaro. If/when the government divests itself fully of GM ownership it may be an option - could be as early as 2012. Not only will the GT500-besting Z28 then be available (probably too much car for me), by then the Camaro SS will have 450 - 475 hp and an optional lower rear gear ratio putting it way out ahead.

I'd call the Camaro a competitive niche item, not a runaway success for Detroit.

Runaway successes for Detroit include their pickups and the Ford Fusion and Chevrolet Malibu, both which have done far better than expected, given their pretty sad predecessors (previous generation Malibu and Taurus).

Wow.  You have a really warped view of things Troll.

...yet you keep engaging him. If you don't like him, ignore him. There's actually a forum feature for which you can ignore people.

The Camaro does have certain advantages over the Mustang (independent rear suspension and more aggressive styling) and the Mustang has certain advantages over the Camaro. It comes down to which you prefer, which makes this pissing match annoying. Neither car trumps the other wholly and completely, but each has its strengths. Those who can't appreciate that are fanboys, plain and simple.

[Cobra93]

You were close so I amended it for accuracy's sake

Kudos to GM for stepping up the competition and building a popular car.  Maybe if they sell enough of them, they won't need to use my money to bail them out. As for me, I simply bought what is, in the opinion of every known automotive journalist and almost everyone else except GoCougs, the best ponycar available. It doesn't make sense to me to base buying decisions on popularity, since the vast majority of the public is stupid. If I adopted that approach, I'd be watching American Idol, listening to Justin Bieber and eating Big Macs.

[Cobra93]

There's actually a forum feature for which you can ignore people.

I've been loathe to use it but I'm coming around to the idea.

[GoCougs]

I'd call the Camaro a competitive niche item, not a runaway success for Detroit.

Runaway successes for Detroit include their pickups and the Ford Fusion and Chevrolet Malibu, both which have done far better than expected, given their pretty sad predecessors (previous generation Malibu and Taurus).

I didn't state "runaway" success I stated "the biggest Detroit product success story of the last few years." Detroit has always sold a ton of trucks, the Fusion debuted in MY2005 and the Malibu already sold a fair amount.

The Camaro came back after hiatus, and not only did it immediately become the segment sales leader after almost always having been outsold by the Mustang in years past, it sold ~80,000 units of such a non-essential car in the worst economic conditions since the Great Depression.

...yet you keep engaging him. If you don't like him, ignore him. There's actually a forum feature for which you can ignore people.

The Camaro does have certain advantages over the Mustang (independent rear suspension and more aggressive styling) and the Mustang has certain advantages over the Camaro. It comes down to which you prefer, which makes this pissing match annoying. Neither car trumps the other wholly and completely, but each has its strengths. Those who can't appreciate that are fanboys, plain and simple.

Some people simply can't tolerate opinions different than their own, and otherwise predicate their happiness on what/how others think. THAT is a fanboy IMO.

[GoCougs]

LOL on Camaro haters. Ha, ha! Better luck next time!

[SVT666]

Some people simply can't tolerate opinions different than their own, and otherwise predicate their happiness on what/how others think. THAT is a fanboy

Funny.  I thought fanboys like to invent things about the cars they don't like and always use the slowest ever times recorded to make the other car look bad...kinda like what you do Troll.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The Camaro does have certain advantages over the Mustang (independent rear suspension and more aggressive styling) and the Mustang has certain advantages over the Camaro. It comes down to which you prefer, which makes this pissing match annoying. Neither car trumps the other wholly and completely, but each has its strengths. Those who can't appreciate that are fanboys, plain and simple.

The Camaro came back after hiatus, and not only did it immediately become the segment sales leader after almost always having been outsold by the Mustang in years past, it sold ~80,000 units of such a non-essential car in the worst economic conditions since the Great Depression.

As a Chevy guy The 'Stang would not be an option for me (even though I've owned a fox body 'Stang) and I think thats what it will come down to (styling aside) for most owners. Brand loyalty and the fresh styling of the Camaro are bigger selling points than it's lap time at VIR. Another thing is I think we all forget (like 93 said) that us car guys are really a small group of the buying public. Most people that buy these cars don't even know if they're front or rear wheel drive. 

[Cobra93]

As a Chevy guy The 'Stang would not be an option for me (even though I've owned a fox body 'Stang) and I think thats what it will come down to (styling aside) for most owners. Brand loyalty and the fresh styling of the Camaro are bigger selling points than it's lap time at VIR. Another thing is I think we all forget (like 93 said) that us car guys are really a small group of the buying public. Most people that buy these cars don't even know if they're front or rear wheel drive. 

Exactly. Brand loyalty figures strongly in the Camaro's sales. I really like the Camaro, but the limited visibility and the bailout turned me off to it.

It's absurd to not believe that

it immediately become the segment sales leader after almost always having been outsold by the Mustang in years past

isn't mainly because

The Camaro came back after hiatus

Simply put, Mustang loyalists have been buying Mustangs for years. They're not in the market for a new Mustang. Camaro loyalists have been waiting for years for the opportunity to buy a new Camaro. Thankfully, GM delivered a good, competitive product for them while simultaneously forcing Ford to improve their product. I see it as a win-win.

[FoMoJo]

Simply put, Mustang loyalists have been buying Mustangs for years. They're not in the market for a new Mustang. Camaro loyalists have been waiting for years for the opportunity to buy a new Camaro. Thankfully, GM delivered a good, competitive product for them while simultaneously forcing Ford to improve their product. I see it as a win-win.

Exactly.

[SVT666]

The Camaro does have certain advantages over the Mustang (independent rear suspension and more aggressive styling) and the Mustang has certain advantages over the Camaro. It comes down to which you prefer, which makes this pissing match annoying. Neither car trumps the other wholly and completely, but each has its strengths. Those who can't appreciate that are fanboys, plain and simple.

I fail to see how the Camaro's IRS gives it an advantage in any way.  The Mustang outhandles it while providing a decent ride.  The only thing the Camaro has over the Mustang is the fresh styling, but it is the styling that is responsible for the Camaro's biggest fault...the sightlines.

[giant_mtb]

I'm almost certain that if I'd test-driven a Camaro SS while car shopping there'd be one in my driveway today.

Or perhaps not, depending on how bad it was.

[GoCougs]

Kudos to GM for stepping up the competition and building a popular car.  ohyeah Maybe if they sell enough of them, they won't need to use my money to bail them out. As for me, I simply bought what is, in the opinion of every known automotive journalist and almost everyone else except GoCougs, the best ponycar available. It doesn't make sense to me to base buying decisions on popularity, since the vast majority of the public is stupid. If I adopted that approach, I'd be watching American Idol, listening to Justin Bieber and eating Big Macs.

And, uh, those very same sources in 2007 were anointing both the all-new Tundra and all-new Camry with the same awards and praise, yet the very various fanboys, many of which who are way bent on the Camaro's success, went on an anti-Toyota/pro-Detroit jihad claiming BS on the "experts." Funny how that works, huh? Not saying that was you, but yeah, you get the idea.

[SVT666]

And, uh, those very same sources in 2007 were anointing both the all-new Tundra and all-new Camry with the same awards and praise, yet the very various fanboys, many of which who are way bent on the Camaro's success, went on an anti-Toyota/pro-Detroit jihad claiming BS on the "experts." Funny how that works, huh? Not saying that was you, but yeah, you get the idea.

The Tundra was a really good truck when it came out.  The Camry sucks ass.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I fail to see how the Camaro's IRS gives it an advantage in any way.  The Mustang outhandles it while providing a decent ride.  The only thing the Camaro has over the Mustang is the fresh styling, but it is the styling that is responsible for the Camaro's biggest fault...the sightlines.

To be honest the IRS helps a car that's 300LBS heavier handle just as well as your "feather weight" Mustang. You gotta look at it both ways. And I'll say it one more time. People are acting like the SS is some sloppy handling pig of a car. The SS is Just as fast as the GT around any track 99% of the time and will still flat outrun (check the 0-150 times) the GT in a straight line. The sight lines are the only serious flaw that the anti GM fanbois have to gripe about. I'm pretty sure that after a few days in the Camaro most of you guys would adapt to the narrow windows.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I'm almost certain that if I'd test-driven a Camaro SS while car shopping there'd be one in my driveway today.

Or perhaps not, depending on how bad it was.

It's not a bad car! The biggest flaw is that it's a GM product!

[CALL_911]

The Tundra was a really good truck when it came out.  The Camry sucks ass.

Isn't it still a pretty good truck?

Or has it been outclassed?

[SVT666]

Isn't it still a pretty good truck?

Or has it been outclassed?

It's been outclassed by the Big 3.  Nissan gave up.

[SVT666]

To be honest the IRS helps a car that's 300LBS heavier handle just as well as your "feather weight" Mustang. You gotta look at it both ways. And I'll say it one more time. People are acting like the SS is some sloppy handling pig of a car.

No, it is a good car.  It's just not as good as the Mustang.  I've driven it.  The handling is good, but you really do feel the weight compared to the Mustang.  The steering is not as nice (feedback is not good).  The shift knob is fucking huge and doesn't feel natural, and the sightlines are horrendous.

[/quote]The SS is Just as fast as the GT around any track 99% of the time and will still flat outrun (check the 0-150 times) the GT in a straight line.[/quote]
Again, that 0-130mph number you guys like to quote was from the one and only comparo where the Camaro outran the Mustang to 130mph.  Every other comparo has the Mustang ahead.  Around a track, it probably comes down to a driver's race.  In the 1/4 mile the Mustang has it by a couple ticks, which is almost a couple cars lengths. Again, a good driver in the Camaro will beat a bad driver in the Mustang...no question.  Equally good drivers in both cars has the Mustang ahead.  I have a much easier time of admitting this stuff than the Troll does.  He refuses to.

The sight lines are the only serious flaw that the anti GM fanbois have to gripe about. I'm pretty sure that after a few days in the Camaro most of you guys would adapt to the narrow windows.

Have you driven it yet?  The sightlines aren't something to get used to...they're downright shitty.  I think I would get panicky if I had to drive the thing in heavy traffic in a large city because you can't see the cars around you.  

[GoCougs]

To be honest the IRS helps a car that's 300LBS heavier handle just as well as your "feather weight" Mustang. You gotta look at it both ways. And I'll say it one more time. People are acting like the SS is some sloppy handling pig of a car. The SS is Just as fast as the GT around any track 99% of the time and will still flat outrun (check the 0-150 times) the GT in a straight line. The sight lines are the only serious flaw that the anti GM fanbois have to gripe about. I'm pretty sure that after a few days in the Camaro most of you guys would adapt to the narrow windows.

Some also forget that the Camaro SS does not have a ride and road noise sacrificing handling option as does the Mustang, as the "Track Pack" used to be an option on the pre-face lift Mustang GT. Ford made this standard on the GT. Perhaps the Camaro will get a similar option but either way no one ever didn't buy pony car A because it was 0.2 sec slower around some road course than pony car B.

[CALL_911]

Have you driven it yet?  The sightlines aren't something to get used to...they're downright shitty.  I think I would get panicky if I had to drive the thing in heavy traffic in a large city because you can't see the cars around you.  

I agree with your points, and I'd take a Mustang over the Camaro.

That said, I disagree with that. My dad and I rented an SS in summer '09. At first, I thought the sightlines were awful, almost dangerously so, but having spent about an hour or two in it, I got used to them quickly. That's a complaint about the Camaro that I dismiss almost automatically.

[giant_mtb]

It's not a bad car! The biggest flaw is that it's a GM product!

That is true.  And to be honest, the fact that it's a GM product definitely steered me away from it.  I refuse to support GM in any way for as long as I live.  Would I buy a used GM product?  Perhaps, but I will never, ever purchase anything directly from GM, whether it be a t-shirt, a keychain, or a car.

[SVT666]

Some also forget that the Camaro SS does not have a ride and road noise sacrificing handling option as does the Mustang,

There you go making shit up again Cougs.  Even if it were true, nobody buys a pony/muscle car expecting Lexus-like serenity and ride.