What did we learn in 2009?

[the Teuton]

If the cars had no merit of goodness to them, GM wouldn't be frantic about losing its Saturn (and Pontiac, for that matter) shoppers to foreign brands and Ford.

[MrH]

It wasn't the best, but it was competitive.



Saturns had a lot going for them:


- An EXCELLENT dealer experience

- Frugal Cars

- Well built and reliable.......quite competitive with Honda and Toyota.

- Unique plastic body panels that intrigued the customer

That's not the argument.  Jacob said that there was an emphasis on quality when it came to Saturns.  That's the argument.  Quality is not the first word to come to mind at all.

And those plastic body panels?  Expensive as fuck.  There's a reason why no one uses them anymore.  They killed profit margins.

[GoCougs]

Manufactured by detractors?

Every bleeding heart liberal journalist in the US drives a Honda, Toyota, or Volvo.

If the problems weren't there, no one would be reporting them.

Every automaker has its issues, just most aren't getting the press that Toyota is because none of had the recent success that Toyota has.

As to the "unintended acceleration" issue - still not one shred of evidence exists (at least publicly).

[MrH]

If the cars had no merit of goodness to them, GM wouldn't be frantic about losing its Saturn (and Pontiac, for that matter) shoppers to foreign brands and Ford.

GM is frantic to loose customers.  Period.  That is completely unrelated to the cars, and proves nothing about them.

[2o6]

I don't care about the circumstances.  They could be given $3 and a pile of shit to work with.  If it's not a great car, then I'm not impressed.

It was a good car.


As evidenced by the loyal followers. It was the ION that destroyed the brand.

GM sucked in the 1990s. The fact that an autonomous brand with a relatively tiny budget was able to make something competitive is still pretty impressive. I live with an early model. Believe me, I don't apologize for the rattling around the center console and squeaking hard plastics. I have to listen to that crap.

I'm saying that the brand was able to a) gain people's trust, b) build a quality product at a competitive price away from any of GM's pre-existing engineering, and c) make something leaps and bounds better than any economy car GM had ever made at that point.

It had an independent rear suspension -- something the Cavalier, Ion, and Cobalt have never had. It had a relatively sophisticated DOHC engine well before Ecotec ever came about. It had a space frame design so the plastic panels didn't have to bear any structural force.

The car was genius, a great idea. It was just marketed poorly and drained of all life once GM Corporate got its hands on it.

Edit: My brother's 1999 with the same interior panels on the dash doesn't have any of the rattling problems mine has.

Also, IRS is a little worthless given that engineering have brought modern suspension advances that kinda make it a little useless on this type of car.

That's not the argument.  Jacob said that there was an emphasis on quality when it came to Saturns.  That's the argument.  Quality is not the first word to come to mind at all.

And those plastic body panels?  Expensive as fuck.  There's a reason why no one uses them anymore.  They killed profit margins.

I thought it was because the entire car shared seemingly NOTHING with other GM models?

GM is frantic to loose customers.  Period.  That is completely unrelated to the cars, and proves nothing about them.

Lose.

[the Teuton]

That's not the argument.  Jacob said that there was an emphasis on quality when it came to Saturns.  That's the argument.  Quality is not the first word to come to mind at all.

And those plastic body panels?  Expensive as fuck.  There's a reason why no one uses them anymore.  They killed profit margins.

I said quality? Maybe quality of the experience -- buying the sizzle, as well as the steak -- but I don't think Saturn is the highest quality car company out there. I'm probably going to switch back to a Subaru in a few years.

I'm saying the car was more than competitive for the marketplace at the time, and GM screwed the pooch.

[2o6]

I said quality? Maybe quality of the experience -- buying the sizzle, as well as the steak -- but I don't think Saturn is the highest quality car company out there. I'm probably going to switch back to a Subaru in a few years.

I'm saying the car was more than competitive for the marketplace at the time, and GM screwed the pooch.

The ION should have been better.


The Quad coupe didn't seem to be too bad of a car, but the sedan was a fail.

[the Teuton]

The ION should have been better.


The Quad coupe didn't seem to be too bad of a car, but the sedan was a fail.

I believe Car and Driver's assessment said it best: "We waited 10 years for this?"

The Ion was a terrible follow-up. The Vue was perfect, for all intents and purposes.

[ifcar]

The Ion was a terrible follow-up. The Vue was perfect, for all intents and purposes.

The Ion at least maintained the S-Series' reliability record. The Vue sure didn't.

[the Teuton]

The Ion at least maintained the S-Series' reliability record. The Vue sure didn't.

Good point.

[2o6]

The Ion at least maintained the S-Series' reliability record. The Vue sure didn't.

It was that CVT, wasn't it?

[ifcar]

It was that CVT, wasn't it?

Only the 4-cylinder Vue had a CVT. And looking at the reliability trouble charts, the problem seems to have been....everything, except the audio system and air conditioning.

[MrH]

It was a good car.


As evidenced by the loyal followers. It was the ION that destroyed the brand.

Having a small group of loyal followers doesn't make it a good car.


Also, IRS is a little worthless given that engineering have brought modern suspension advances that kinda make it a little useless on this type of car.

Ah yes, IRS's are useless.  You're an idiot.  Why do you even bring up things you don't understand?



I thought it was because the entire car shared seemingly NOTHING with other GM models?

It shared some things with other models.  The plastic panels surely didn't help the situation though.

Lose.

Hey jackass.  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stone.  Quit being a nitpicking little bitch.

[2o6]

Why are you getting so touchy? It's a Saturn, man.

[hotrodalex]

The media picks its darlings and its villains. Right now, Toyota is a really good villain because it is on top.

I still don't think Toyota's troubles are close to over yet.

I don't think the problems are widespread enough for it to affect them much. The general public doesn't know most of the dirt on Toyota. The people on this board do, but we are not "normal people".

[2o6]

Ok, saying IRS was dumb was stupid of me. Especially when most good cars use it......

[MrH]

Why are you getting so touchy? It's a Saturn, man.

You just go around to every thread and try and correct people.  90% of the time, it useless dribble on shit you don't understand.  Every other post is from you in most of the car related threads.

[2o6]

You just go around to every thread and try and correct people.  90% of the time, it useless dribble on shit you don't understand.  Every other post is from you in most of the car related threads.

So, I guess I should shut up and leave the forum, huh?

[Raza]

Nothing.  That much is clear.

[2o6]

Nothing.  That much is clear.

I suppose.


A lot of things seem to be the culmination of problems that existed before now. They're just now coming out.

[the Teuton]

As someone who has driven both a 1995 Saturn SL2 and a 2009 Dodge Caliber, I've got to say that I don't think the Saturn is that bad of a car.

[Raza]

As someone who has driven both a 1995 Saturn SL2 and a 2009 Dodge Caliber, I've got to say that I don't think the Saturn is that bad of a car.

Considering how you've compared the cars you've owned "favorably" against other cars in the past, your opinion is suspect on this matter.  I have a hard time believing the SL2 does anything better than the Caliber.  14 years is just a near-insurmountable gap, especially in this class, as cheap cars have exponentially increased in quality recently.

[hotrodalex]

Considering how you've compared the cars you've owned "favorably" against other cars in the past, your opinion is suspect on this matter.  I have a hard time believing the SL2 does anything better than the Caliber.  14 years is just a near-insurmountable gap, especially in this class, as cheap cars have exponentially increased in quality recently.

But it is a Caliber...

[ifcar]

Considering how you've compared the cars you've owned "favorably" against other cars in the past, your opinion is suspect on this matter.  I have a hard time believing the SL2 does anything better than the Caliber.  14 years is just a near-insurmountable gap, especially in this class, as cheap cars have exponentially increased in quality recently.

To be fair, recent Chrysler passenger cars have definitely regressed in many ways, and the Saturn is at least better at being an economy car than the un-economical Caliber.

[the Teuton]

Considering how you've compared the cars you've owned "favorably" against other cars in the past, your opinion is suspect on this matter.  I have a hard time believing the SL2 does anything better than the Caliber.  14 years is just a near-insurmountable gap, especially in this class, as cheap cars have exponentially increased in quality recently.

I believe it is quicker, among other things. If you'd rather own a Caliber, that's your own choice. I'd recommend you drive both before making that sort of commitment, though. If you really have your heart set on the Caliber, perhaps your Saturn example has either been beaten into the ground, or you just might need to be committed to an institution.

I won't even pretend to troll on this one. The Caliber is rubbish.

[MrH]

As someone who has driven both a 1995 Saturn SL2 and a 2009 Dodge Caliber, I've got to say that I don't think the Saturn is that bad of a car.

You're comparing it to quite possibly the worst car being made today.  I'm in shock Calibers are even produced.  In fact, I'm shocked by most Dodge/Chrysler products these days.  They're that bad.

I think that you can even compare you 95 saturn to a caliber speaks more about the caliber than it does your car.

[the Teuton]

I had to at that one.

[ChrisV]

After reading comments over at Grassroots Motorsports for years, I have to conclude that the early Saturns were actually decent little cars. They hold up well over time, deliver excellent fuel mileage, tend to be well suited to motorsports use, even though they never had to. They definitely were competetive in their market, and gained a loyal following for good reason. There was vastly more right with Saturn at the time than there was wrong. And yes, GM blew it with Saturn after gaining all that good will from the consumer.

[MX793]

Every automaker has its issues, just most aren't getting the press that Toyota is because none of had the recent success that Toyota has.

As to the "unintended acceleration" issue - still not one shred of evidence exists (at least publicly).

Not a shred of evidence?  Toyota has already come forward and admitted there's a problem with the floor mats sticking under the accelerator and have implemented a short term fix for current cars (IIRC, they're tying the mats to the seat mounts to keep them from shifting forward) and is in the works on modifying the design of the throttle pedal for future cars.

[ifcar]

Not a shred of evidence?  Toyota has already come forward and admitted there's a problem with the floor mats sticking under the accelerator and have implemented a short term fix for current cars (IIRC, they're tying the mats to the seat mounts to keep them from shifting forward) and is in the works on modifying the design of the throttle pedal for future cars.

It could just be a PR move. "We're not ignoring this, honest!"