"To Serve and Protect" Where's the service?!

[giant_mtb]

So, I live in the UP.  We have a lot of snow, and roads are icy/hardpack throughout most of the winter.  Lots of cars go into snowbanks, ditches, and dividers.  While I was home over Christmas break, I saw numerous cars stuck in some way with a police SUV sitting there next to it with its lights flashing to bring attention so nobody would make it into a pile-up.  The problem is that these officers are driving 4WD SUVs, yet they sit there and do nothing to get these people out of the snowbank and on their way.  All I ever see is the driver of the stuck vehicle on their cell phone, undoubtedly calling a wrecker so they can pay $100 to get out of the snowbank.

Why can't the cops in 4WD vehicles carry around a couple tow straps and just help people out?  I understand that wreckers need to make money, too, but for cripe's sake; if a civilian motorist is willing to use his 4WD to get someone out of the snowbank, why shouldn't the honorable LE do so as well? 

I just find it annoying.  The "serve" part of "serve and protect" doesn't seem to be there in this way. 

What gives, resident LEOs?

[cawimmer430]

Why can't the cops in 4WD vehicles carry around a couple tow straps and just help people out?

This is pure speculation but...

They might be afraid that if they help tow someone out of a ditch / snow (etc.) and accidentally scratch or damage their car in any way, the person will SUE their cop ass! This is America after all! 

j/k 

[The Pirate]

This is pure speculation but...

They might be afraid that if they help tow someone out of a ditch / snow (etc.) and accidentally scratch or damage their car in any way, the person will SUE their cop ass! This is America after all!  

j/k  

Sadly, you're probably correct.  Towing a vehicle from a ditch doesn't require the same amount of ability as neurosurgery, but you do need to have some skill to extract the vehicle without damage (some vehicles more than others) and with minimal disruption to traffic on the roadway.  So it's absolutely a liability thing - if the LEO attempts to extract the vehicle and damages something, the chances of the department getting hit with damages, etc. is pretty good.  Unfortunately, it's probably for the best to avoid that whole situation.

So, I think the LEO being there to make sure the person is okay (and letting them sit in the patrol car to warm up, etc.) is satisfactory.

I agree with giant_mtb in theory, but it probably isn't realistic with society today, sadly.  Most people aren't even able to admit that it's their fault that the car went into the ditch in the first place.

[giant_mtb]

And the towing company isn't going to have a liability complex?

[CALL_911]

This is pure speculation but...

They might be afraid that if they help tow someone out of a ditch / snow (etc.) and accidentally scratch or damage their car in any way, the person will SUE their cop ass! This is America after all!  

j/k  

That probably is the reason why they don't. Sad, isn't it.

[Colonel Cadillac]

And the towing company isn't going to have a liability complex?

They're better suited for potential liabilities. "Ma'am, there was no way we coulda pulled that heap out without scratching it, I've done this a million times but you really done get that thing in a bitch of a position."

[rohan]

So, I live in the UP.  We have a lot of snow, and roads are icy/hardpack throughout most of the winter.  Lots of cars go into snowbanks, ditches, and dividers.  While I was home over Christmas break, I saw numerous cars stuck in some way with a police SUV sitting there next to it with its lights flashing to bring attention so nobody would make it into a pile-up.  The problem is that these officers are driving 4WD SUVs, yet they sit there and do nothing to get these people out of the snowbank and on their way.  All I ever see is the driver of the stuck vehicle on their cell phone, undoubtedly calling a wrecker so they can pay $100 to get out of the snowbank.

Why can't the cops in 4WD vehicles carry around a couple tow straps and just help people out?  I understand that wreckers need to make money, too, but for cripe's sake; if a civilian motorist is willing to use his 4WD to get someone out of the snowbank, why shouldn't the honorable LE do so as well?  

I just find it annoying.  The "serve" part of "serve and protect" doesn't seem to be there in this way.  

What gives, resident LEOs?

two words-  liafukinbility----- thee most important word in law enforcement today.

Tow trucks are covered for that damage we aren't.  We dont' even let our people open lockouts for someone unless there's a small baby in the car and it's either really cold and car not running or really hot and car not running.  And then it better be life or death.  and if I catch one of our guys pulling someone out with one of our 4x4's they're ass is gonna get an earful and without a damn good excuse they're gonna catch paper.  Tow strap breaks and catches someone standing there real injury can happen- just a foolish idea to pull anyone out without proper insurance.

[giant_mtb]

Fuckin' retarded.

[rohan]

Dont' blame us- blame the lawyers out there.    We'ld just as much rather help people- but we can't anymore.  And protect and serve?  It's a slogan for LAPD it's not anything that's actually real.  Best part is if you were going too fast and put your car in that ditch you'll have to pay someone to pull it out and then depending on how busy the deputy/trooper/officer is you are about 50/50 to get a "Speed to fast for conditions" buscuit.

[giant_mtb]

The local PD's cars say it.

People suck.  I don't necessarily blame you, I just hate the fact that you can no longer do simple things like pull people out of ditches because of stupid bull shit.

[rohan]

Some local cars say it.  Ours say something like "we hate you.  Why can't you all just die?"  or something like that.  I can't remember exactly how it goes.  Yeah the liability thing is just so far out of control.  We no longer do vacation checks because we have people with lake homes in this county who think that vacation checks mean we have to check their homes a couple times a day for the entire winter with written documentation.  We got sued a couple years ago and our county risk manager and lawyer decided to settle.  Why?  Because someone had filled out a "vacation check" sheet on Sept. 1 and listed themselves being gone from the property until May 30.  The house got broken into and had a bunch of stuff stolen- they sued us because someone didn't check the property at least once on every shift over that entire time.  Now no one can have us come to their home and check the doors while they are away for a week in Florida or where ever.

[rohan]

Come to think of it I've heard of police department sued and lost along I-94 because some random drunk drove into the back of their car and got hurt but sued because the PD didn't have enough lights on the car.  I think it was Blackman Township Public Saftey but I'm not 100% sure - and then they got sued because someone who was drunk hit the back of one of their cars a year or 2 later and sued and won a settlement because they had to many lights on their car and they couldn't see.   

[TurboDan]

This is pure speculation but...

They might be afraid that if they help tow someone out of a ditch / snow (etc.) and accidentally scratch or damage their car in any way, the person will SUE their cop ass! This is America after all! 

j/k 

That's absolutely correct. In fact in my state, Fish & Wildlife officers aren't even allowed to make stops in their boats when the water is choppy because of the fear that the person who was stopped may sue if their boat is scratched. 

[TurboDan]

Also, FWIW, who's to say that LEOs are trained to tow vehicles out of snowbanks in treacherous weather conditions? Or that a standard police SUV is capable of pulling a vehicle out in the first place? As rohan mentioned, what happens if that tow strap snaps and someone gets killed in the process? Is it THAT much of an inconvenience to wait for a tow truck that you know is actually capable of towing a given vehicle?

[rohan]

Wow.  That's just stoopid with a capital dumb.

[rohan]

Also, FWIW, who's to say that LEOs are trained to tow vehicles out of snowbanks in treacherous weather conditions? Or that a standard police SUV is capable of pulling a vehicle out in the first place? As rohan mentioned, what happens if that tow strap snaps and someone gets killed in the process? Is it THAT much of an inconvenience to wait for a tow truck that you know is actually capable of towing a given vehicle?

Excellent point- unless your certified by the state to do something we don't allow you to do it.  Not been to a pursuit driving school?  No chases.  Never been certified to run a laser?  Can't do it.  Never been state certified to sleep with one eye open?  Better stay awake.  Never been certified to pull vehicles from snowy ditches?  Better not.

[TurboDan]

Wow.  That's just stoopid with a capital dumb.

The not allowed to make "choppy water stops" thing? Yeah, I'd say so. It's not something they publicize, but an officer told me about the policy last year.

The worse policy is that the state refuses to give them the money to add bumpers to the boats (or modern boats, for that matter) where this wouldn't matter. And oh yeah, there are only 8 (yes, 8) full-time officers serving in the entire state of New Jersey, which has approx. 1 million anglers and hunters. Until last year, they did have about 50 deputies who volunteered but had full state LE cert. and were trained in the academy, but thanks to "liafuckinbility" they fired all of them. Of course, they didn't replace them with full-time officers or anything like that either.

Great place, huh?

[rohan]

I'm gonna stick with my first post on that.  Wonder how they define choppy waters or is it completely subjective in the likely event a boat gets scratched?

[Rupert]

If I'm stuck, I want someone who has the right rig and a clue pulling me out. It's not as simple as hook a thing around a bumper and gun the engine.

[rohan]

If I'm stuck, I want someone who has the right rig and a clue pulling me out. It's not as simple as hook a thing around a bumper and gun the engine.

Whenever I've ever pulled someone out I've always looked for something underneath the car that looks like a good place to hook to.  Like those long steel tubes that run back in forth up next to the tires.  They look all solid and stuff. 

[giant_mtb]

If I'm stuck, I want someone who has the right rig and a clue pulling me out. It's not as simple as hook a thing around a bumper and gun the engine.

ORLY?!  YOU MEAN YOU CAN'T JUST PULL ON THA BUMPERZ?!

[TurboDan]

I'm gonna stick with my first post on that.  Wonder how they define choppy waters or is it completely subjective in the likely event a boat gets scratched?

From what I was told it's completely subjective. You can have some windy days that aren't too choppy, depending on the wind direction and other factors, so I guess they couldn't just set a wind speed. I think that, generally speaking, the guys are just trying to cover their asses out there and avoid any kind of insurance claims.

THEN there is the whole debacle in New Jersey where the equally-underfunded State Marine Police are prohibited from enforcing fishing regs and Fish and Wildlife officers are prohibited from enforcing safe boating and BUI laws - even though both agencies have the exact same LE certification. 

[rohan]

That's not even something that's punishable then- at least not by Michigan standards.  That would be like me telling our guys they can't stop cars on days where the sun is overly bright.  Man I'm glad I don't live in that place.

[TurboDan]

That's not even something that's punishable then- at least not by Michigan standards.  That would be like me telling our guys they can't stop cars on days where the sun is overly bright.  Man I'm glad I don't live in that place.

Ha, they're fleeing NJ for a reason. It's a nutty state. The thing with the choppy water edict is that the people don't necessarily know about this policy (well, unless they read CarSPIN I guess) and the officers do mostly land-based enforcement those days so they can still enforce the laws in a different venue. Yes, it's a very broken system, indeed.

[dazzleman]

Getting beyond the whole lawsuit issue, it's a manpower deployment issue.  Police have to cover a large area and have to be available to respond to crimes and other emergencies.  They're not out there to provide free towing services, and it's not a good idea to create the expectation that they should be.

[giant_mtb]

Getting beyond the whole lawsuit issue, it's a manpower deployment issue.  Police have to cover a large area and have to be available to respond to crimes and other emergencies.  They're not out there to provide free towing services, and it's not a good idea to create the expectation that they should be.

A good point, but they're wasting just as much time sitting there with their lights flashing doing nothing while waiting for the wrecker to come.

[Minpin]

The not allowed to make "choppy water stops" thing? Yeah, I'd say so. It's not something they publicize, but an officer told me about the policy last year.

The worse policy is that the state refuses to give them the money to add bumpers to the boats (or modern boats, for that matter) where this wouldn't matter. And oh yeah, there are only 8 (yes, 8) full-time officers serving in the entire state of New Jersey, which has approx. 1 million anglers and hunters. Until last year, they did have about 50 deputies who volunteered but had full state LE cert. and were trained in the academy, but thanks to "liafuckinbility" they fired all of them. Of course, they didn't replace them with full-time officers or anything like that either.

Great place, huh?

Interesting. We got stopped in 2-3 footers by the coast guard a couple years ago. I guess they are more skilled though as they dropped em off and picked em up wihout the two boats ever touching. They just got close to the back deck and they hopped onto our boat.

It was positively nasty out though.

[TurboDan]

Interesting. We got stopped in 2-3 footers by the coast guard a couple years ago. I guess they are more skilled though as they dropped em off and picked em up wihout the two boats ever touching. They just got close to the back deck and they hopped onto our boat.

It was positively nasty out though.

Oh, the CG and NJ State Marine Police (as well as a number of local/county police departments with marine units) will stop you here in choppy waters too. I'm just talking about the Fish & Wildlife officers who are given boats without bumpers for patrol.

[James Young]

It's false advertising; time to call the FTC.

[J86]

That's absolutely correct. In fact in my state, Fish & Wildlife officers aren't even allowed to make stops in their boats when the water is choppy because of the fear that the person who was stopped may sue if their boat is scratched. 

I sure as shit would make some noise if some yahoo fucked up the gelcoat of my boat through no fault of my own.  Or am I supposed to cover that out of my own pocket.  Stuff isn't cheap.