Does GM deserve sympathy?

[the Teuton]

According to reports from Jalopnik, an audible "Fuck!" was heard among the GM crowd after the Equinox had lost out to the Transit Connect for the NA Truck of the Year. That seems to pretty much summarize the kind of year it's been for GM -- and what kind of years may still be there to come.

After taking $50 billion in taxpayer bailout money, GM has cranked out some surprisingly good cars -- the LaCrosse, Equinox, Camaro (does that really count as good?) -- and it looks like they're planning on making more competitive products in the near future. All of them were in the pipeline well before GM ran out of money, though.

But GM's marketshare has still been tumbling, their management seems to be playing a giant game of corporate musical chairs, they're not getting the much-needed bump from the media that Ford has been getting lately. Good as their cars may be, the Fusion is arguably still a better family sedan than anything GM produces for the money.

GM's management is really trying to turn around the company. Chrysler has Fiat, so we're all looking to Europe for cool small cars and a completely different corporate culture. But GM doesn't. GM is still is searching for an identity. GM doesn't even have a permanent CEO right now, and much like 10 years ago, they're still dominated by old white people in the management ladder.

Most of them are new old white people, though. They're fighting an uphill battle in a situation they didn't create. Much like the Pittsburgh Pirates, though, no matter how much talent they get during the off-season, you know they're still going to have a losing season next year. Do they deserve a bit more benefit of the doubt than they're getting?

[Submariner]

The Fusion isn't great...it's good, but not great.  It is over hyped to the point where it makes me nauseous. 

Just saying. 

[Rupert]

To an extent, yes. On one hand, they created the situation they're in now with shitty products that resulted in bad press and consumer mistrust. On the other, their lineup is pretty good, and some of their cars are very good (Malibu, IMO). You can't say it's not their fault that they got a bad name to begin with, but you can say that the consumer perception of GM as a bad company is no longer accurate, at least WRT their cars.

[dazzleman]

It's hard to have much sympathy for them.  For so long, they contented themselves with shooting to be as good as the last generation (or the one before) of cars put out by their competitors.  And many people have practiced a condescending form of 'affirmative action' with respect to GM -- "Oh, let's jump up and down to applaud them because they've now caught up to where Toyota was in 1995" or some such thing.  And the fact that $50 billion of my tax money went to prop them up, when they had ample opportunities that they squandered to fix their problems over the last 3 decades, lessens any potential sympathy that I might have for them.

[Byteme]

GM management needs a very complete housecleaning, IMHO.  Not so much because the people there donm't know cars or how to design and build them, but because by and large they themselves are products of GM and hage spent their working lives think being "good GM employees"; they've been indoctronated.  If GM is going to change it needs to change from the line supervisours on up, with full support of senior management, which needs to be refreshed as well.

[dazzleman]

GM management needs a very complete housecleaning, IMHO.  Not so much because the people there donm't know cars or how to design and build them, but because by and large they themselves are products of GM and hage spent their working lives think being "good GM employees"; they've been indoctronated.  If GM is going to change it needs to change from the line supervisours on up, with full support of senior management, which needs to be refreshed as well.

I think that's really right.  GM was such an insular and self-contained company, with so little broad perspective.  I heard that most of their senior people went to the same school, and took special GM-related courses.  From the inside, with no exposure to outside thought, you get a very wharped perspective on things.

[sportyaccordy]

Every car company is having a hard time right now. I feel no sympathy for GM at the moment, as they are subsidized.

[dazzleman]

Every car company is having a hard time right now. I feel no sympathy for GM at the moment, as they are subsidized.

Good point.  They have an advantage (which may turn out to be pyrrhic) that other companies don't.  But like the banks, they're going to find that the price of accepting government aid is very high, possibly fatal.

[2o6]

Good point.  They have an advantage (which may turn out to be pyrrhic) that other companies don't.  But like the banks, they're going to find that the price of accepting government aid is very high, possibly fatal.

I don't understand the hate for the bailout.


Pretty much all automakers have had some sort of bailout from their respective governments at some point in time.

[dazzleman]

I don't understand the hate for the bailout.


Pretty much all automakers have had some sort of bailout from their respective governments at some point in time.

You don't understand why people who work hard to earn money and have to pay taxes on it would resent subsidizing a company that has been so badly mismanaged for so long?

When you're really working to support yourself, and forking over half your money to a corrupt and spendthrift government so it can be used to buy votes on issues that are anathema to you, then maybe you'll understand.

[2o6]

You don't understand why people who work hard to earn money and have to pay taxes on it would resent subsidizing a company that has been so badly mismanaged for so long?

When you're really working to support yourself, and forking over half your money to a corrupt and spendthrift government so it can be used to buy votes on issues that are anathema to you, then maybe you'll understand.

I mean in the sense of upholding Toyota and such because they haven't had a bailout.

[dazzleman]

I mean in the sense of upholding Toyota and such because they haven't had a bailout.

Toyota wasn't bailed out with my tax money.  I guess that's part of the difference.

[the Teuton]

Dazzle, you could always hide your money in an offshore account if you don't like it. Just sayin'...

[dazzleman]

Dazzle, you could always hide your money in an offshore account if you don't like it. Just sayin'...

Sure, that will work....

[giant_mtb]

I don't understand the hate for the bailout.

...says the guy who hasn't had a job or paid any taxes...

[FoMoJo]

What's good for General Bullmoose,
is good for the USA!

I have no sympathy for GM!  

Perhaps it's a bit of irony that they had to go begging to the government for a handout after all those years of collusion.  Though not entirely responsible, they played a big part in the wage/price spiral that led to the failure of the NA Automotive industry to be competitive in both product and labour cost.  Bad management on many levels and they still look for favours to keep them in business.

[AutobahnSHO]

I don't understand the hate for the bailout.

Pretty much all automakers have had some sort of bailout from their respective governments at some point in time.

No, Ford hasn't ever, at least that I can recall.

Problem with companies is that they make money by
1- making something (or providing services) people want to buy
2- selling that something at a price people think is reasonable and affordable
3- doing #1 and #2 better than another company.
which means they also have to
4- pay their suppliers as little as possible for raw materials (or components of the end-product)
5- keep overhead costs (packaging, marketing, transporting the end-product) as low as possible, and

6- pay employees as little as possible. Pay them too low and they'll be dissatisfied and leave. Sure you can probably get someone else but you need to train the replacement, (which costs more money) and if they don't care enough about their work to do a quality job, you spend far more on quality control,  supervision, and recalls than if you'd just paid the employees a little more and kept a happy employee..

------
Americans want inexpensive products but high wages and quality of life. Those two don't mix, so a balance has to be maintained. At the same time, wages are (comparatively,)  very low pretty much everywhere else in the world (except for Europe, Australia, other "civilized" areas..)

------
Ford was the last to be unionized- over serious opposition from Henry. GM and other car makers had given in much earlier. On the one hand, unions can help fight for employees against oppressive companies. But I personally believe nowadays that any type of bureaucracy is stifling, and will oppress any type of free-market, progression, or modernization. Especially the UAW, which controls so much of its industry.

-------
The use of PEOPLE'S MONEY to go to a PRIVATE COMPANY is absolutely contrary to American values and the Constitution.
Just because a company screwed up, they should suffer consequences and cut back themselves. Otherwise, what are they going to learn and do better next time?
-Having the Fed with it's finger in anybody's business is bad news. It creates endless amounts of regulation, paperwork, and oversight. Which we all know is super-productive....

Plus it's like the guy gambling all his paychecks away. You feel sorry for him and give him some extra money to make ends meet this month, next month will be the same story.

[Byteme]

What's good for General Bullmoose,  is good for the USA![/size]

Alludes to one of the most famous misquotes of all time.  GM's "Engine" Charlie Wilson during his confirmation hearings to be Eisenhower's Secretary of Defence was asked if he could make a  decison as SecDef that would hurt GM.  His reply:

"I cannot conceive of one, because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors and vice versa. The difference did not exist. Our company is too big. It goes with the welfare of the country."

That was shortened to "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA".  The comic strip Lil Abner picked up on it with the General Bullmoose character, hence the quote FoMoJo provided.

The last part of the Wilson quote "Our company is too big. It goes with the welfare of the country"  does seem to be the reasoning tha the bailout was given to GM.
"

[FoMoJo]

Alludes to one of the most famous misquotes of all time.  GM's "Engine" Charlie Wilson during his confirmation hearings to be Eisenhower's Secretary of Defence was asked if he could make a  decison as SecDef that would hurt GM.  His reply:

"I cannot conceive of one, because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors and vice versa. The difference did not exist. Our company is too big. It goes with the welfare of the country."

That was shortened to "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA".  The comic strip Lil Abner picked up on it with the General Bullmoose character, hence the quote FoMoJo provided.

The last part of the Wilson quote "Our company is too big. It goes with the welfare of the country"  does seem to be the reasoning tha the bailout was given to GM.
"

What Wilson said didn't fit well into the lyrics of the song...for those who are familiar with the Li'l Abner movie.

Al Capp (L'il Abner) was my favourite comic strip writer; the movie was hillarious as well...though Charles Shultz (Peanuts) and Walt Kelly (Pogo) were a strong runners up.  The political commentary was very biting as well as hilarious.

As for GM, and the other domestics, it was in the '50s that their failure to deal with the unions that started the wage/price spiral.  It was just easier to mark up the product than to negotiate responsibly.  This impacted all aspects of the economy and, eventually, led to the collapse of the domestic auto industry; thus forcing the government to bail them out.  Of course, the wage/price spiral was also responsible for other manufacturers seeking cheap labour elsewhere in order to remain competitive.  This remains the biggest single threat preventing economical stability and job availability, imo.

[Byteme]

What Wilson said didn't fit well into the lyrics of the song...for those who are familiar with the Li'l Abner movie.

I've got that movie on DVD.  Three minutes on Broadway made Julie Newmar a star as Stupifyin Jones.  A woman so beautifyul that men woudl freeze in their tracks after one glance at her.

[giant_mtb]

Does GM deserve sympathy?  No.

The end.

[rohan]

GM does deserve at least 50% sympathy because they've had to deal with the UAW demanding more and more no matter what the business was doing financially.  GM going into bankruptcy?  So what we want bigger raises and better healthcare! 

[FoMoJo]

I've got that movie on DVD.  Three minutes on Broadway made Julie Newmar a star as Stupifyin Jones.  A woman so beautifyul that men woudl freeze in their tracks after one glance at her.

I need to add that to my collection.  So far, I have "Bullitt".

[SVT666]

I've got that movie on DVD.  Three minutes on Broadway made Julie Newmar a star as Stupifyin Jones.  A woman so beautifyul that men woudl freeze in their tracks after one glance at her.

Even at the ripe old age of 78 years old, she's still an attractive woman.

[SVT666]

The Fusion isn't great...it's good, but not great.  It is over hyped to the point where it makes me nauseous. 

Just saying. 

Have you driven it?  I have.  In fact I've driven the SE with 6MT and an SEL auto.  It's great.  I would say it's on par with the Accord, but I found it a little more fun to drive.  Even the magazines have stated that it's actually an entertaining drive.

[Byteme]

Have you driven it?  I have.  In fact I've driven the SE with 6MT and an SEL auto.  It's great.  I would say it's on par with the Accord, but I found it a little more fun to drive.  Even the magazines have stated that it's actually an entertaining drive.

Did it have an excess of road noise like the Accord?

[the Teuton]

Did it have an excess of road noise like the Accord?

The Fusion is eerily quiet. I think it's too isolated from the road.

I also don't think the Malibu is a bad car at all, but I don't like the back seat, and I think the car is a bit porky.

The Sonata might legitimately be my favorite car in the midsize class right now.

[AutobahnSHO]

The Fusion is eerily quiet. I think it's too isolated from the road.

That would be heaven. Open a window if it's too quiet.
(In fact, they should make a small tube that opens/closes into the cabin for more engine noise for those that want it.)

[sportyaccordy]

That would be heaven. Open a window if it's too quiet.
(In fact, they should make a small tube that opens/closes into the cabin for more engine noise for those that want it.)

Isolation is so key. I don't know what most of the sounds my car makes on the road are, but they damn sure are loud, and are typical for cars of its class + vintage. Just transmit engine noise, and you're good. That's what they did in the E39- isolate everything but that glorious 6...

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Short answer, no.

Long answer, nnnnooooooo.