More on Toyota. How to save your company $100, the heck with the customer

[Byteme]

This really offers an interesting counterpoint to the 'we're sorry and are doing better because our customers are number 1' commercials Toyota is currently running.



UPDATE 1-Toyota saw 2007 floormat recall as money-saving win
* Toyota said 2007 floormat recall saved over $100 mln

* Document one of thousands presented to US House panel

* Toyota not immediately available for comment

WASHINGTON, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) believed it had saved over $100 million by convincing U.S. regulators to end a 2007 investigation of sudden acceleration complaints with a relatively cheap floormat recall, according to an internal company document.

The document, which appears to be a briefing for Toyota's North American chief Yoshi Inaba prepared by the automaker's Washington staff in July 2009, cites sudden acceleration as a "key" safety issue and warns that U.S. regulators were taking a tougher line on forced recalls.

The document, which is marked confidential, was provided to the U.S. House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform in advance of an appearance by Toyoda President Akio Toyoda before the panel on Wednesday.

A Toyota representative was not immediately available to comment. A copy of the presentation was obtained by Reuters.

The document seems certain to add to the high-stakes debate about whether Toyota missed or ignored red flags about a rising number of complaints about sudden acceleration in its vehicles and whether U.S. safety regulators were tough enough.

In recent months, Toyota has recalled over 8.5 million vehicles globally for problems that include sticky accelerators, accelerators that can be pinned down by loose floormats and a braking glitch on its Prius hybrid.

Toyota has estimated those recalls will cost it $2 billion in the fiscal year ending March.

But before an August 2009 crash that killed an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and three others, Toyota had limited its action on sudden acceleration complaints to a recall of 55,000 floormats on the Camry and Lexus ES350.

The July 2009 Toyota presentation depicts a Washington-based company operation that presented three cases where it had succeeded in limiting U.S. safety investigations as "wins."

Inaba, who had retired from Toyota in 2007, was called back from retirement and appointed to head up the automaker's North American operations in late June by Toyoda.

The presentation that carries his name was dated July 6, 2009, about two weeks after Inaba took the job at the direct urging of Toyoda.

The document cites "favorable recall outcomes" as one of the key achievements of Toyota's lobbying effort in Washington as well as "safety rulemaking favorable to Toyota."

Specifically, the document says that Toyota's Washington safety group, a team that included several former U.S. officials, helped negotiate changes or delays to four proposed vehicle safety rules covering standards for roof crush, electric shock, side impact and door locks.

By winning "added lead time and phase-in" for new side-impact crash standards, Toyota estimated that it had saved about $124 million, according to the document.

At the same time, Toyota's Washington safety group was credited with having "negotiated (an) 'equipment' recall on Camry/ES," a step credited with saving over $100 million with no finding of a defect by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. (Reporting by Kevin Krolicki; Editing by Tim Dobbyn)

[WookieOnRitalin]

A point was made in another thread about how most, if not all the major automakers are guilty of games of deception, duplicity, and gambling.  

Toyota is going to get beat up over this. They gambled and lost. Now their reputation is going to take a pounding in public opinion. They will hurt, but in the end, Toyota will recover. This is just a stop point in their seemingly unstoppable growth over the last decade. Toyota has peaked and at their peak, have fallen mightily.

I loathe Toyota as much as the next guy, but Toyota will stick around. If I was a Toyota owner, I would want the guys who made these decisions reprimanded and fired. I am not sure if they committed a specific crime other than crimes of conscience. They lied about the problems and in the end, it bit them in the ass. This is a lesson many people learn throughout life.

With the information network growing at an accelerated (excuse the pun) rate, we are moving to an era of more transparency. I believe some people want to be ignorant about certain aspects of our world and that is fine, but consumers are getting smarter. Mainly because they are more well informed from a variety of sources. If Toyota had just been more transparent about the problem, consumers would have understood. In the end, Toyota risked the one thing that resonates the most with consumers and customers.

They risked their reputation for quality products and their ironclad reliability. It is this that brings customers into the Toyota showroom. They put it on the table, hoping to roll a seven, and came up with snake eyes. For what? 100 million?

It is the first time you discover a girlfriend is lying to you or has lied to you. You cannot help but wonder what else has she lied about. What other secrets is she hiding for me? You also doubt yourself for not seeing it. You should have known better. It creates a sphere of doubt.

Again, is lying ever worth the trouble? I wonder. Before, Toyota customers never had to think twice about their decision to buy a Toyota product. They knew they were getting quality, safe, reliable, and low cost vehicles. It was assured. Toyota was different. It would not lie to you like a domestic manufacturer. It would not play the same games. This girl was different.

Wrong. This is all about Toyota's fall from grace. The pedestal for which they were enshrined for so long has now crumbled. It is funny to realize that Toyota is just as fallible as the next drunken idiot corporation.

Here is what is not certain. Will customers forgive Toyota? Will they dump Toyota? We shall see. I think overall, customers will now think twice about buying a Toyota. It is a feeling, they are not accustomed to embracing.

Again, for 100 million? Does not seem worth it does it?

[FoMoJo]

This article ties in with the gist of the overall attitude of Toyota; especially the last paragraph...

Toyota hit with grand jury subpoena


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Toyota said Monday it has received a federal grand jury subpoena for documents relating to the unintended acceleration of its vehicles and braking systems in the Toyota Prius.

The carmaker also received a request and a subpoena for similar documents from the Los Angeles office of the Securities and Exchange Commission. The subpoenas and request were revealed in an SEC fililng.

Toyota (TM) has recalled more than 8 million vehicles related to possible unintended acceleration. The 2010 Toyota Prius was the subject of a separate recall involving problems with its brakes.

The federal grand jury subpoena was from the Southern District of New York. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Southern District declined to comment on the matter, saying "It is our office's policy to neither confirm nor deny the existence of an investigation."

Toyota intends to cooperate with the investigations, the automaker said in its filing.

Toyota president Akio Toyoda and other company executives are expected to testify in Washington on Wednesday before the House Oversight Committee. The committee is looking into how the automaker and federal auto safety regulators dealt with concerns over unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles.

Internal documents leading up to the hearing show Toyota executives boasting of the cash saved by negotiating down the severity of the recall related to acceleration.


I hope the hearing on Wednesday is televised.

[FoMoJo]

E-mails show NHTSA investigating Toyota issues in '04


From the article...



NHTSA records show the safety agency began investigating the issue in late 2003.

? On Dec. 9, 2003, NHTSA's defect screening group recommended a formal investigation of unintended acceleration in the 2002-03 Toyota Camry after getting 39 complaints, alleging 26 crashes.

A summary of the meeting obtained by The News said NHTSA suspected the unintended acceleration was caused by "possibly the engine's electronic control module or the drive-by-wire throttle system" that became standard on the 2002 model.

? On Feb. 17, 2004, NHTSA began a separate formal review of a defect petition concerning unintended acceleration in the 2002-03 Lexus ES 300.

? Just 10 days later, State Farm research administrator Sam Boyden sent an e-mail to NHTSA on Feb. 27, saying the nation's largest insurer had five claims of unwanted acceleration in the 2002 Lexus ES 300 during the previous 12 months.

One of the crashes was a 2002 Lexus ES 300 in the garage of a Life Time Fitness in August 2003. "Gas pedal stuck causing a hit of multiple cars," said the State Farm report obtained by The Detroit News on Saturday

Another accident took place in a Lexus with just 2,300 miles on it as a couple was driving from Mississippi and stopped for gas in Louisiana. "He kept depressing the brakes, but the described vehicle would not stop," the State Farm report said. "It felt like his accelerator got stuck."

Another claim filed in November 2002 said it was the third time the Lexus had taken off "without warning on its own."

? On March, 1, 2004, Jonathan White, chief of defects assessment for NHTSA, wrote back to Boyden, seeking additional claims data.

"We are looking into similar reports and would like to acquire what similar information you have on the model year 2002-2004 Camry and Camry Solara, as well as the 2003-2004 Lexus ES 300," White wrote. "Your submission of the information was very timely; we had just presented the information on the Camry vehicles."

? On March 2, 2004, Boyden wrote back attaching 34 more claims, including 18 on the 2002 Camry and 11 on the 2003 Camry.

? Two days later on March 4, 2004, NHTSA opened a formal investigation of alleged unintended acceleration in the 2002-03 Toyota Camry/Solara and Lexus ES 300.

? But NHTSA closed the probe a few months later on July 22, 2004, without identifying a safety defect trend or vehicle-based cause.

NHTSA had six separate investigations into sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles in the last decade -- and required Toyota to do little.

In September 2007, Toyota agreed to recall of 55,000 floor mats on the 2007-08 Lexus ES 350 and 2007-08 Camry -- but didn't make any mechanical fix.

But NHTSA continued to look at the issue.

NHTSA requested on April 29 a listing of State Farm claims alleging unintended acceleration for all vehicle models for the 2006-09 model years. When NHTSA got the list on June 24, the agency incorporated the data as part of its review.

After an August deadly accident in Santee, Calif., that left an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and three others dead when the pedal of a loaner Lexus vehicle got stuck in the floormat, Toyota soon agreed to a comprehensive fix.

Toyota has recalled 5.4 million vehicles in the United States to address pedal entrapment concerns, and is replacing floor mats, shrinking and replacing accelerator pedals and in some cases adding foam underneath the carpet below the pedal. Toyota has also agreed to add brake override systems to all vehicles that will allow motorists to stop vehicles even if the accelerator is stuck.

Toyota has also recalled 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. over sticky pedal issues.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has said that federal officials had to push Toyota "every step of the way" to act faster on the safety issues. NHTSA event sent its acting administrator, Ron Medford, to Japan in December to meet with senior Toyota officials and urge the company to move faster on safety issues.

[Byteme]

Again, is lying ever worth the trouble? I wonder. Before, Toyota customers never had to think twice about their decision to buy a Toyota product. They thought knew they were getting quality, safe, reliable, and low cost vehicles. It was assured. Toyota was different. It would not lie to you like a domestic manufacturer. It would not play the same games. This girl was different.

Wrong. This is all about Toyota's fall from grace. The pedestal for which they were enshrined for so long has now crumbled. It is funny to realize that Toyota is just fallible at the next drunken idiot corporation.

Here is what is not certain. Will customers forgive Toyota? Will they dump Toyota? We shall see. I think overall, customers will now think twice about buying a Toyota. It is a feeling, they are not accustomed to embracing.

Again, for 100 million? Does not seem worth it does it?

I changed a word for you. 

[FoMoJo]

I changed a word for you. 

Too true.

I don't know whether it had to do with the excellence of Toyota's marketing or general lack of car knowledge of the people who bought them but, certainly, it should be apparent by now that Toyota's self-proclaimed reputation was a myth.

[WookieOnRitalin]

I changed a word for you.  

Too true.

I don't know whether it had to do with the excellence of Toyota's marketing or general lack of car knowledge of the people who bought them but, certainly, it should be apparent by now that Toyota's self-proclaimed reputation was a myth.

Why change a word in one specific quote when I make the exact same progression in the next paragraph?

Wrong. This is all about Toyota's fall from grace. The pedestal for which they were enshrined for so long has now crumbled. It is funny to realize that Toyota is just as fallible as the next drunken idiot corporation.

I was using the term "knew" as an absolute. My progression illustrates that the absolute no longer exists in the customer's mind. Doubt now resonates.

I am not going to hate on Toyota. They messed up and the consequences will resonate for a substantial period. It has taken awhile for the Domestics from the 80s/90s. Now the playing field is leveling off and we shall start seeing a more competitive market due to the downturn and Toyota's misstep. This favors the consumer. This is the time to be in the market. Quality products abound and companies willing to sell their soul for your loyalty.

I like this combination. I will be in the market for a brand new vehicle within the next year.

[Submariner]

And with this, the rise of Hyundai is complete. 

[Byteme]

Too true.

I don't know whether it had to do with the excellence of Toyota's marketing or general lack of car knowledge of the people who bought them but, certainly, it should be apparent by now that Toyota's self-proclaimed reputation was a myth.

I've long been of the opinion that the typical Toyota buyer was after what they believed to be safe, reliable, thrifty transportation.  I think that's pretty much Consumer Reports criteria for a good car as well, hence the continuous high ratings.  I suspect the average buyer was about as enthused about buying a new car as they would be buying a new toaster.  Not buying soul, not buying fun, just wanting a transportation appliance.  This also explains why many on forums such as these don't particularly care for them.

[WookieOnRitalin]

I've long been of the opinion that the typical Toyota buyer was after what they believed to be safe, reliable, thrifty transportation.  I think that's pretty much Consumer Reports criteria for a good car as well, hence the continuous high ratings.  I suspect the average buyer was about as enthused about buying a new car as they would be buying a new toaster.  Not buying soul, not buying fun, just wanting a transportation appliance.  This also explains why many on forums such as these don't particularly care for them.

Not all Toyotas are not appliances. In fact, some of their SUVs are some of the best in the market. The FJ, 4Runner, and Rav4 are all excellent vehicles. I would never fault anyone for owning one. They are capable, enjoyable vehicles. Even the Rav can get a little dirty.

The tC is also an excellent buy. For the price, you get one hell of a vehicle. I've been in a few. They are well built and fun. If I was younger, I might want to own one.

It is about taste. I used to assume that Toyota owners were dull people. I've turned around a little bit. My main point I make to people is this...

"The Corolla and Camry have been two of the best selling vehicles in America for the last decade. So they are good, but because Toyota wants them to sell so well they have to be the most inoffensive vehicles for Toyota. They do not say anything. They are vanilla. Besides. With so many people owning them, do you REALLY want to be like everyone else? Well, you just might. I, on the other hand, do not want to own something 10 million other people own. Some people follow the crowd. Others do not. I am the latter. Do you want to be the former?"

If they make you a deal, then they make you a deal. If you can get a Corolla for 3k less than a comparably equipped Civic, Mazda3, Focus, etc, then pull the trigger. You would be stupid not to. The tough part is when not much separates the competition from one another especially price. At that point, you must ask yourself who you are and what do you value in a vehicle?

If a Corolla or a Camry matches up with those values then who am I to argue? The blind buying of Toyotas has become a national past time. The consumer now has tougher choices to make.

In general, most Toyotas do not match up with what I value in a vehicle, but I would be stupid not to look at some of the vehicles they do offer that match up with my tastes like the Rav, FJ, or 4Runner. After being in my Jeep for so long, I have really learned to enjoy it's capability, utility, and quality. If Toyota is making deals on those vehicles, would you hold a bad opinion of me? Would you say I am a buyer of appliances?

I think your premise could use some revising and second thought. It is just blind hatred for most people without any real reason. What I always hated about Toyota was not Toyota itself, but the people who bought Toyotas blindly. Since this incident, that has now changed. I am not going to sit here and revel in it. These are darker days for Toyota.

Bottom line: Toyota still makes quality vehicles. They always will. If someone took the time to really step back and decide if a Toyota was right for them, then there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. At the end of the day, they will still get a quality product.

[Byteme]

Not all Toyotas are not appliances. In fact, some of their SUVs are some of the best in the market. The FJ, 4Runner, and Rav4 are all excellent vehicles. I would never fault anyone for owning one. They are capable, enjoyable vehicles. Even the Rav can get a little dirty.
I thought we were mainly talking about the Corolla and Camry, the cars that are the subject of recalls and investigations.


"The Corolla and Camry have been two of the best selling vehicles in America for the last decade. So they are good, but because Toyota wants them to sell so well they have to be the most inoffensive vehicles for Toyota. They do not say anything. They are vanilla.
Very true

If they make you a deal, then they make you a deal. If you can get a Corolla for 3k less than a comparably equipped Civic, Mazda3, Focus, etc, then pull the trigger. You would be stupid not to. The tough part is when not much separates the competition from one another especially price. At that point, you must ask yourself who you are and what do you value in a vehicle?
That depends on the individual.  I would pay $3K more for a comparably equipped Mazda 3 because it's that much better in the fun to drive department.

I think your premise could use some revising and second thought. It is just blind hatred for most people without any real reason.
We will agree to disagree on this point.

[WookieOnRitalin]

We are talking about Toyotas flagship vehicles, but EJ, you must evaluate an over generalization especially when it comes to cars.

A toaster costs 10-120 dollars (some kick ass Toaster ovens). A new car will likely be between 15-30 thousand dollars for most consumers. A toaster can be replaced readily. A car cannot. This is why terms like reliability, quality, and dependability actually mean something. Toyota has always been associated with those qualities for the right reasons.

When it comes to making an investment, would you not want to buy something that exhibits those qualities? This is where Toyota got by for so long. My problem always revolved around people saying Toyota was superior when it was not. Cars have so much better now across the board. People were being fools by not checking what else was out there in the market.

My main point is that Toyota bashers will find reasons to bash all Toyotas. It is always easy to kick somebody when they are already on the ground. I think some perspective is in order and not blind bias.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.

[WookieOnRitalin]

I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.

+1

[ifcar]

I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.

More comfortable, quieter, less expensive.

[Eye of the Tiger]

More comfortable, quieter, less expensive.

Bullshit/subjective/I disagree, maybe a bit, maybe a bit.

[ifcar]

Bullshit/subjective/I disagree, maybe a bit, maybe a bit.

Toyotas are smoother-riding, they are indisputably quieter than comparable Hondas in every case that comes to mind except Yaris vs. Fit, and the price difference is in the thousands.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Toyotas are smoother-riding, they are indisputably quieter than comparable Hondas in every case that comes to mind except Yaris vs. Fit, and the price difference is in the thousands.

People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.

[FoMoJo]

I want to know what ever made people think Toyota was better than Honda.

Marketing .

[ifcar]

People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.

And which Buicks would be comparable to Toyota's best-sellers?

[Eye of the Tiger]

And which Buicks would be comparable to Toyota's best-sellers?

Camry? Century.
Corolla? Century.
Sienna? LeSabre.
Supra? Regal.
.
.
.

[Speed_Racer]

People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.

Toyotas are like Buicks for people who won't buy domestics.

[Jon?]

People should buy more Buicks if they want floaty boaty cushy road couches. Buicks are just a smooth riding, just as quiet, and just as reliable as Toyotas.

Buick was a domesitc, therefore unreliable.  Otherwise, you're right, there's not much to distinguish them, although our Regal GS is fun to drive.

Toyotas are like Buicks for people who won't buy domestics.

+1

[Raza]

Maybe it's high school and fond memories of my friend's shitbox Regal Custom, but I like Buicks. 

[Jon?]

It's my kid's car but on the few occasions I've had to drive it for whatever reason, I've quite liked it.  Smooth, quiet, handles well enough and goes when you want it to.

[565]

Road noise probably turns alot of people off Honda.  I kid you not, I think the road noise in my parents accord is worse than in my Z06.  Plus Honda's seem to rattle alot, which annoys me too.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Road noise probably turns alot of people off Honda.  I kid you not, I think the road noise in my parents accord is worse than in my Z06.  Plus Honda's seem to rattle alot, which annoys me too.

There is such a thing as too quiet, as least IMO. Toyota people suck and don't want to know they're driving a car.

[CJ]

Our 10 year old Camry beats our 3 year old Accord hands down in almost every way except interior volume and acceleration.

[GoCougs]

More comfortable, quieter, less expensive.

Yup, especially road noise. I think Toyotas are a wee bit more plush, too.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Our 10 year old Camry beats our 3 year old Accord hands down in almost every way except interior volume and acceleration.

Your 3 year old Accord is a real lemon.