Sub $40k SUV of choice.

[GoCougs]

A bad car isn't one that does some things poorly in an intentional tradeoff. It's one that fails at what it tries to do.

There is no intentional trade-off with the Wrangler other than leveraging the Jeep name. Exactly 2.7% of new Jeep buyers tap out its off-road ability. It's the Hummer H1 (i.e., ego booster for wannabees) for poor people.

Yet a 4 cylinder 4skinner is OK in the acceleration dept.?  Please, at least the Wrangler was done right with its latest incarnation, not a single major problem.

Tha same can't be said for the toyota wonder FJ with its cracking windshields and body cracking in half.

True, but as we all know 4-cylinder 4Runners are be extremely rare birds. Standard fare is 270 hp V6 and 5sp AT. The Wrangler embarrasses with a 200 hp pushrod V6 and 4sp AT. Some quarter can be given because it is one of the few still available with M/T, but not much.

Don't know about the FJ problems you mention. Abuse any off-roader and it'll yield after a certain point. I never cared for it as IMO the styling is horrid, but it's the better overall vehicle by leaps and bound.

I've had extensive time in both a new 2-door stripper and Unlimited Rubicon.

What do you mean in terms of refinement? In terms of ride and engine, I think the Wrangler is ahead of Nissan. The Wrangler also feels more solidly built than the Xterra, although the interior appointment is cheap (but durable).

You're exaggerating about the power too, as all new Wranglers get the 3.8L V6. It's not fast by any means, but it isn't the slug that the old I4 was.

Solid front axles front and rear, 200 hp pushrod V6, and 4 sp AT? It's still stuck in the '80s. IMO the Xterra is light-years beyond the Wrangler when it comes refinement, performance and all-round competency at being a vehicle. It probably doesn't quite have the off-road chops and what little deficit there is owing to its larger size.

[Xer0]

I really like the Wrangler; it?s one of those vehicles that just getting in you know that plenty of cars out there have a better powertrain, better tranny, more space, better gas mileage, better this, better that but in the end you just don't care.  It wins you over with the charming fact that the car is unabashedly itself and it loves it. 

Although yes, the powertrain could use an upgrade. 

[WookieOnRitalin]

Hey, one of my favorites as well. Disagree about the 5 year arc however. It was originally planned for 4 years, and why all major plot lines were wrapped up at the end of S4. The network granted S5 unexpectedly. Most of the TV movies blew too save for In The Beginning , which I thought was fantastic.

Small universe, but you clearly misinformed. The entire arc was on a 5 year arc. JMS has written to that effect since before the series even aired. The 4th year wrap up had everything to do with fear of cancellation as the PTEN network died. Without a home, JMS tried wrapping up the series. At the last minute, TNT picked up the show and gave it two more movies as well. Because it took so long to figure out what was going to happen with B5, the show lost Claudia Chrstian after the fourth season.

The entire show was meant to be 5 years from the very start.

[Rupert]

Solid front axles front and rear, 200 hp pushrod V6, and 4 sp AT? It's still stuck in the '80s. IMO the Xterra is light-years beyond the Wrangler when it comes refinement, performance and all-round competency at being a vehicle. It probably doesn't quite have the off-road chops and what little deficit there is owing to its larger size.

If it didn't have solid axles, it would be a Liberty/Grand Cherokee. The point of the Wrangler is not, "refinement, [go-fast] performance and all-round competency at being a vehicle." Jeep is clearly capable of such (e.g. everything else they make), yet they still make and sell the Wrangler.

After a point, a Jeep person would just say, "it's a Jeep thing," and leave it at that. If you don't get it, oh well.

[WookieOnRitalin]

If it didn't have solid axles, it would be a Liberty/Grand Cherokee. The point of the Wrangler is not, "refinement, [go-fast] performance and all-round competency at being a vehicle." Jeep is clearly capable of such (e.g. everything else they make), yet they still make and sell the Wrangler.

After a point, a Jeep person would just say, "it's a Jeep thing," and leave it at that. If you don't get it, oh well.

+1

[Vinsanity]

There is no intentional trade-off with the Wrangler other than leveraging the Jeep name. Exactly 2.7% of new Jeep buyers tap out its off-road ability. It's the Hummer H1 (i.e., ego booster for wannabees) for poor people.

That still doesn't make it the worst car in America if it's good at what it was designed to do. If 2.7% of new Porsche or Corvette buyers use their cars' performance capability, does that mean that those cars aren't worth the sacrifice in practicality?

[Rupert]

That still doesn't make it the worst car in America if it's good at what it was designed to do. If 2.7% of new Porsche or Corvette buyers use their cars' performance capability, does that mean that those cars aren't worth the sacrifice in practicality?

Of course, duh. But they're more refined and have performance, so they aren't quite the worst cars in America.

[GoCougs]

Small universe, but you clearly misinformed. The entire arc was on a 5 year arc. JMS has written to that effect since before the series even aired. The 4th year wrap up had everything to do with fear of cancellation as the PTEN network died. Without a home, JMS tried wrapping up the series. At the last minute, TNT picked up the show and gave it two more movies as well. Because it took so long to figure out what was going to happen with B5, the show lost Claudia Chrstian after the fourth season.

The entire show was meant to be 5 years from the very start.

Um, the operative point being S5 material was never of the original B5 pantheon. It was invented after the original arc was written and developed (S1-4).

[GoCougs]

If it didn't have solid axles, it would be a Liberty/Grand Cherokee. The point of the Wrangler is not, "refinement, [go-fast] performance and all-round competency at being a vehicle." Jeep is clearly capable of such (e.g. everything else they make), yet they still make and sell the Wrangler.

After a point, a Jeep person would just say, "it's a Jeep thing," and leave it at that. If you don't get it, oh well.

I have a real hard time picturing you saying that.

The Wrangler is the third largest poser vehicle behind the H2 and Prius, and a terrible vehicle to boot.

[S204STi]

WTF is this sci fi shit in my SUV thread?

Anyway, I think you miss the point of the Wrangler, sorry dude.  Could it be better in terms of power-train?  Sure, but I don't want to see it lose what makes it a Jeep, which is short wheel base with solid f/r axles and great off-road chops right out of the box. 

[Raza]

Have you guys ever been in or driven a new(er) Wrangler? With refinement that makes an Xterra feel like a Bentley and a 0-60 time in double digits, IMO it's the worse vehicle sold in America today.

Nope. 

I know Car says it's not bad to drive on the road, but I've always gotten the impression that it's bad to drive onroad.  But then again, if I ever bought a vehicle such as this, it would not be for daily use. 

[WookieOnRitalin]

Um, the operative point being S5 material was never of the original B5 pantheon. It was invented after the original arc was written and developed (S1-4).

Actually that is not entirely true. Some S5 material was actually apart of the overall arc. The telepath war being foreshadowed throughout the series run.

In fact, some of the material sourced during S5 was actually in part of the JMS's original outline of the show from the 80s from a spin-off outline of the show (that never happened) called Babylon Prime where an Interstellar Alliance is formed.

Even on the commentary of "The Fall of Centauri Prime" JMS specifically states this was the entire point of having a 5 YEAR STORY ARC. Another story foreshadowed during the first four seasons of B5 that played out during the fifth season but was unreachable during the 4th season. Had B5 concluded, the Centauri Prime of In the Beginning would never been explained. The legacy of Londo's ascension to emperor would not have been explained. Londo's Keeper plot line would never been explained from World Without End.

The entire arc of World Without End was never fully wrapped either especially in the years between Season 5 and Londo's death. How it came to pass that Delenn and Sheridan were captured. What happened to the alliance. What was Delenn referring to when she mentioned new darknesses?

In "The Deconstruction of Stars" (written after the pickup from TNT) there is some foreshadowing to what JMS wanted to get to in Season 5 as points in the story line that he never got to reach. There is a reference to the Telepath War, the incident involving Delenn and Sheridan's son David.

David is actually a part of B5 lore going back to JMS's outline during the early 90s (though not given an actual name) except, (check this out) he is not the son of Sheridan and Delenn, but Sinclair and Delenn.

The story changed during the years. Actually, Delenn was supposed to be a male ambassador even after the casting of Mira Furlan during the summer of 1992. JMS wrote that he wanted the Minbari to be different and that a female playing a male would be an excellent way of creating that effect. This is why Delenn appears the way "he" does in the pilot movie, The Gathering. They wanted Delenn to look male. This changed during the hiatus between the pilot and Season 1 where several cast members were lost and stories were changed. One development was a new plot line during Season 1. A lot of things are left unresolved especially Talia Winters character. Her arc from Season 1 to when she got dropped was forced. Why give Talia telekinetic abilities only to drop her later in the show? Why foreshadow her sexual/romantic relationship with Ivanova?

Some changes were made because of circumstances. Oh well. I digress.

The story was meant for 5 years. Some of those plot lines were completed during Season 5.

[WookieOnRitalin]

WTF is this sci fi shit in my SUV thread?

Anyway, I think you miss the point of the Wrangler, sorry dude.  Could it be better in terms of power-train?  Sure, but I don't want to see it lose what makes it a Jeep, which is short wheel base with solid f/r axles and great off-road chops right out of the box. 

That's my fault bud. Sorry.

I was comparing Jeep's relationship with Chrysler to Babylon 5/J. Michael Straczynski's relationship with PTEN (a now dead network). I saw some amazing parallels and felt compelled to post on them. My apologies.

Literature class has me making all kinds of connections these days. I see patterns where I never saw patterns before. I actually did not like my Lit class at the beginning of the semester. Now I find myself on a different level of analysis, writing, and observation. Where subtext was once absent is now apparent. It is a fascinating development for me personally.

It probably does not belong in your SUV thread, but alas, it is here. Once you start arguing with GoCougs, it's tough to stop. GoCougs is this board's best antagonist (sorry Raza). He's always forcing the discussion forward challenging us. However, I would prefer not to admit this in an open forum to inflate his ego further.

[WookieOnRitalin]

I have a real hard time picturing you saying that.

The Wrangler is the third largest poser vehicle behind the H2 and Prius, and a terrible vehicle to boot.

What exactly is it posing as?

[GoCougs]

Yeah, a bit beyond the thread now. My point was, and is, that S5 was filler in the B5 'verse.

"Poser" is a stab at those that buy said vehicles.

[S204STi]

That's my fault bud. Sorry.

I was comparing Jeep's relationship with Chrysler to Babylon 5/J. Michael Straczynski's relationship with PTEN (a now dead network). I saw some amazing parallels and felt compelled to post on them. My apologies.

I don't really care, just bustin' balls.

[SVT666]

The Wrangler is terrible at being a DD, but who the fuck cares?  It's the most kickass offroader you can buy new and I don't really give a shit if only "2.7%" of owners use them offroad.  I would and that's all I give a shit about.

[WookieOnRitalin]

Yeah, a bit beyond the thread now. My point was, and is, that S5 was filler in the B5 'verse.

"Poser" is a stab at those that buy said vehicles.

It's an adventure vehicle. You think anyone buys a Wrangler for practicality. Of the 80000+ customers of the Wrangler, few are wasting the 20-30k because they want a practical vehicle with a nice ride, low engine noise, and class leading performance. They want a piece of heritage. Wrangler owners have far more personality than a Prius owner. The idea of mentioning a Prius and Wrangler owner in the same sentence is an abomination. They are two ends of the spectrum.

A Prius owner is practical, eco loving, status seeking yuppie.

A Prius owner tries to save the environment while the Wrangler owner hopes to conquer it. Wrangler's are about lifestyle more than anything else. People do not really drive Wrangler's seeking status. They get them because they fit in with the person's lifestyle.

A lot of Jeep owners I know (I among them minus hunting) boat, camp, fish, rock climb, hunt, etc. A suburban mom is not likely to be seen in a Wrangler. If she is, that is one kick ass mom!

[Rupert]

It's an adventure vehicle. You think anyone buys a Wrangler for practicality. Of the 80000+ customers of the Wrangler, few are wasting the 20-30k because they want a practical vehicle with a nice ride, low engine noise, and class leading performance. They want a piece of heritage. Wrangler owners have far more personality than a Prius owner. The idea of mentioning a Prius and Wrangler owner in the same sentence is an abomination. They are two ends of the spectrum.

A Prius owner is practical, eco loving, status seeking yuppie.

A Prius owner tries to save the environment while the Wrangler owner hopes to conquer it. Wrangler's are about lifestyle more than anything else. People do not really drive Wrangler's seeking status. They get them because they fit in with the person's lifestyle.

A lot of Jeep owners I know (I among them minus hunting) boat, camp, fish, rock climb, hunt, etc. A suburban mom is not likely to be seen in a Wrangler. If she is, that is one kick ass mom!

Ha, sure.

CJ/TJ/YJ/whatevers are a lot like Harleys. Old tech, way outdated, rough as hell, fervent followers. And just like Harleys, lots of Wrangler buyers are going for the image.

[Rupert]

I have a real hard time picturing you saying that.

The Wrangler is the third largest poser vehicle behind the H2 and Prius, and a terrible vehicle to boot.

The point being, you don't get it.

[MX793]

The Wrangler is a lot like the Lotus Elise.  Terrible as a daily driver, but excellent at what it was really designed to do (off-roading in the Wrangler's case).

[WookieOnRitalin]

Ha, sure.

CJ/TJ/YJ/whatevers are a lot like Harleys. Old tech, way outdated, rough as hell, fervent followers. And just like Harleys, lots of Wrangler buyers are going for the image.

Status was probably a bad word choice. Acceptance might be a better term. It seems to me that a Toyota buyer goes to his/her friends saying, "Hey look! I bought a practical, refined vehicle! Look how cool I am! Look how smart I am! Yay whales!"

A person who buys a Wrangler is more inclined to crack open a beer with his/her friends saying, "This thing pretty much kicks ass. Let's go take the boat out."

I think you nailed it by comparing the different statuses. It is just a different status. However, a Wrangler buyer is not looking for the associated status of following trends. If anything, they break them.

[WookieOnRitalin]

FWIW.

This poll may change with the concept of the Wrangler getting a new engine for the 2011 model year. Allpar is rumoring that production for the 2011 (70th anniversary) Wrangler has moved up to August of this year and will feature the Pentastar V6 with or without direct injection and a new transmission.

The 2.4L world engines are also getting turbo'ed to produce 190 hp with 175 lb/ft of torque. Fiat's 1.4L Turbo will achieve 170 hp and 170 lb/ft of torque (nice!).

[CALL_911]

I have a real hard time picturing you saying that.

The Wrangler is the third largest poser vehicle behind the H2 and Prius, and a terrible vehicle to boot.

I'm pretty sure the Wrangler is a larger car than the Prius.

[MX793]

I'm pretty sure the Wrangler is a larger car than the Prius.

He didn't mean "large" in the physical sense.

[Tave]

The ride on the new Wrangler really isn't bad at all. In terms of comfort, it's light-years ahead of its predecessors. I'd go so far as to say it actually might be one of the better rides in its class, if you can get used to the rather odd combination of roll and steep turn-in.

The ergonomics are bad, and like I said earlier, the interior is pretty cheap. Those would be the biggest reasons not to DD it, IMO. Other than that, the engine and chassis are just fine for A-B work.

I wouldn't buy one unless I knew it would get a lot of dirt time, though. And I would get mine with the 6-spd. And actually, I've only every driven manual Jeeps--so both those new ones I drove had the 6-spd.

[GoCougs]

Judging the Prius and Wrangler to be in the same poser league is correct; that they are posers on opposite ends of the poser spectrum is a diversion.

You'd be hard pressed to find a worse towing vehicle than a Jeep save for a compact or subcompact; light and short wheel base = 2,000 lb factory tow rating.

The mention of the Harley helps little for that's even more of a poser product; ZERO redeeming product attributes those dinosaurs.

The Wrangler lifestyle is exactly equivalent to the CPA buying a Harley to relive the biker gang heyday just after WWII. Not happening IOW.

The Wrangler sells on legacy, and because it is relatively cheap.

I also think the 4-door Wrangler is also the worst looking vehicle on sale in the US. By far.

[SVT666]

Yes it's a poseur car, but what's that got to do with it being good or not?

[SVT666]

The Wrangler lifestyle is exactly equivalent to the CPA buying a Harley to relive the biker gang heyday just after WWII. Not happening IOW.

Why can't someone own a Harley because they like it?  Fuck, I never had any ambitions whatsoever to be part of a biker gang, but I would love me a soft tail or a fat boy.

[GoCougs]

Yes it's a poseur car, but what's that got to do with it being good or not?

Someone dare used the "OMG it sells so well" argument as an implicit counter to the poser judgment.