An old but interesting article on "history and heritage" and why it works in EU

[AltinD]

Personally I think it's a bit rude to refer to cars that don't target the enthusiast crowd as appliances. An appliance is a household device that sits there and does one task. Just because a typical Camry owner doesn't thrash their car at every stoplight doesn't mean their car is an appliance.

It's not about the way the car is driven, but about requirements in a car.

[AltinD]

If these cars were truly bought by enthusiasts, the bulk of 3 series' sold would be sports packaged stickshift cars- but a quick Autotrader search shows autos outsell stickshifts by 8 to 1.............

LOL, it's always worth a good laugh when people claim that only the stick shift is what makes a car fun to drive. Car's dynamics have not much to do with shifting gears yourself, but rather chassis, suspensions, steering tuning and engine response. I've driven a 70 HP VW Polo (a boring car) that was more fun and involving to drive then a V6 Toyota.

BTW, the only stick car I've driven was a Toyota (Corolla), one of the most boring cars ever.

[Onslaught]

BTW, the only stick car I've driven was a Toyota (Corolla), one of the most boring cars ever.

You need to go drive more cars and come back later.

[sportyaccordy]

Not all enthusiasts want a manual transmission.

Wimmer, in all seriousness, what percent of 3 series owners would choose an automatic? This isn't like a Benz or something... it's a car meant to be driven

[the Teuton]

Wimmer, in all seriousness, what percent of 3 series owners would choose an automatic? This isn't like a Benz or something... it's a car meant to be driven

According to the most recent statistics, less than 10% of new Lambos are stick. Make of that what you will.

[2o6]

According to the most recent statistics, less than 10% of new Lambos are stick. Make of that what you will.

Not having to deal with a super heavy clutch probably makes it a breeze in the city.

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, in all seriousness, what percent of 3 series owners would choose an automatic? This isn't like a Benz or something... it's a car meant to be driven

In all seriousness, how many people who buy a 3-Series are "enthusiasts"?

Even here in Europe, it's not uncommon anymore to see plenty of automatic 3-Series parked around the city. In fact, most higher-end BMW 3-Series' here that I personally see on the road are automatic. That includes 335i, 335d, 330i and 330d.

[sportyaccordy]

In all seriousness, how many people who buy a 3-Series are "enthusiasts"?

Even here in Europe, it's not uncommon anymore to see plenty of automatic 3-Series parked around the city. In fact, most higher-end BMW 3-Series' here that I personally see on the road are automatic. That includes 335i, 335d, 330i and 330d.

You've proven my point- most new BMW owners are more badge snobs than driving or H&H (TM) enthusiasts

They just want to be seen + associated with the badge... which is well within their right... but just kind of silly to me, esp considering how the Europeans rape their customers option-wise

For Sally DoesntHaveAClue, a freshman in a very prestigious college w/enabling parents, what's the difference between a 328i and a TSX? Most people don't have a clue, and it seems silly to give people so much credit. Call it for what it is- brand whoring, materialism, etc... these people have no clue about the history or heritage of these cars beyond the fact that the brands say "I am rich".

[cawimmer430]

You've proven my point- most new BMW owners are more badge snobs than driving or H&H (TM) enthusiasts

Eh, what does specifying an automatic transmission in a 3-Series have to do with badge snobbery? 

Again, not every driving enthusiast wants a manual.

They just want to be seen + associated with the badge... which is well within their right... but just kind of silly to me, esp considering how the Europeans rape their customers option-wise

The European brands allows customers to personalize and individualize their cars by allowing them to select what features etc. they want. This is something Lexus can't do with their fully-loaded cars meaning that you can change the color and rims but other than that all Lexus out there are of the same specs: how utterly boring from an already lame boring brand.

Sure, the options in European cars cost money, but people are willing to pay for this because of their personal emotional needs and because these brands stand for something. Offering well-equipped cars has always been the Japanese way of doing business and in the case of their luxury brands it's a competitive selling point because none of them has any kind of history or heritage like the European luxury brands.

[Raza]

According to the most recent statistics, less than 10% of new Lambos are stick. Make of that what you will.

Yeah, old rich poseurs have been buying Ferraris and Lamborghinis for ages; now they just have the option of making it easy on themselves. 

[hotrodalex]

You've proven my point- most new BMW owners are more badge snobs than driving or H&H (TM) enthusiasts

They just want to be seen + associated with the badge... which is well within their right... but just kind of silly to me, esp considering how the Europeans rape their customers option-wise

For Sally DoesntHaveAClue, a freshman in a very prestigious college w/enabling parents, what's the difference between a 328i and a TSX? Most people don't have a clue, and it seems silly to give people so much credit. Call it for what it is- brand whoring, materialism, etc... these people have no clue about the history or heritage of these cars beyond the fact that the brands say "I am rich".

I have an automatic BMW. That makes me a badge snob?

[Raza]

I have an automatic BMW. That makes me a badge snob?

Yes.

[sportyaccordy]

Sure, the options in European cars cost money, but people are willing to pay for this because of their personal emotional needs and because these brands stand for something. Offering well-equipped cars has always been the Japanese way of doing business and in the case of their luxury brands it's a competitive selling point because none of them has any kind of history or heritage like the European luxury brands.

What does BMW or Mercedes stand for?

I have an automatic BMW. That makes me a badge snob?

I said "most". For something like a 5 or 7 series, to a degree I can understand going automatic, but in my opinion an automatic 3 isn't worth it....

[Onslaught]

Sure, the options in European cars cost money, but people are willing to pay for this because of their personal emotional needs and because these brands stand for something.

What?

[Laconian]

What?

German history and heritage.

[sportyaccordy]

I'm done in here... we just have to agree to disagree

[Onslaught]

German history and heritage.

Well they do have some history.

[hotrodalex]

An automatic 3er is still one of the best performing cars you can get for the money. I'd rather have an auto 3 series than a manual Accord.

[Tave]

An automatic 3er is still one of the best performing cars you can get for the money. I'd rather have an auto 3 series than a manual Accord.

I hear you. While I prefer manuals on a lot of cars, if it came time to make my purchase and I could find a better deal on an auto, the auto was in better condition than any of the manuals I could find, or it was available with a lot of important options I couldn't otherwise get, that would certainly be a big factor in my decision.

Also, the type of car I was purchasing and whether I already had a manual in my garage would influence me.

I actually find it refreshing to drive an auto every once in awhile. Let's not forget, it is (or was originally) a luxury, and like all luxuries is meant to be enjoyed.

[Cookie Monster]

An automatic 3er is still one of the best performing cars you can get for the money. I'd rather have an auto 3 series than a manual Accord.

If I were to get an auto BMW I'd get a 7 series.

And depending on the Accord I'd rather have that over the 3 series.

[hotrodalex]

Drive my 328i and a manual Accord down some of the backroads around here and tell me which is more fun. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't compare.

I got an auto because I was searching for a 3 series for months and finally found an absolutely perfect example. It was an automatic. So either I get a perfect car or hold off to get a worse car just because it has a clutch. Sorry, I'll take the perfect one.

[Cookie Monster]

Drive my 328i and a manual Accord down some of the backroads around here and tell me which is more fun. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't compare.

I got an auto because I was searching for a 3 series for months and finally found an absolutely perfect example. It was an automatic. So either I get a perfect car or hold off to get a worse car just because it has a clutch. Sorry, I'll take the perfect one.

Well, I loved the 6th generation one (same as my parents' car but with a manual and a 4 cylinder).

[The Pirate]

Drive my 328i and a manual Accord down some of the backroads around here and tell me which is more fun. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't compare.

I got an auto because I was searching for a 3 series for months and finally found an absolutely perfect example. It was an automatic. So either I get a perfect car or hold off to get a worse car just because it has a clutch. Sorry, I'll take the perfect one.

Yeah, I have to agree here.  My friend had an E36 325i automatic around the same time that my dad had an '97 Accord EX 5-speed.  Took my road test on that Accord, and as much fun as it was (and Hondas of that era were quite nimble and fun for what they were), the BMW was a more enjoyable car to drive.

And I understand the used car game well, you're always going to have to make a concession. 

[nickdrinkwater]

Spare me the fucking HYPERBOLE and CAPITALIZED WORDS... post like a RATIONAL ADULT and not BILL FRIST.

[cawimmer430]

What does BMW or Mercedes stand for?

BMW = premium sport sedans

Mercedes = premium luxury sedans

I said "most". For something like a 5 or 7 series, to a degree I can understand going automatic, but in my opinion an automatic 3 isn't worth it....

An automatic transmission provides consumers with a choice. If someone wants a 3-Series with an automatic, let them. It's their way of enjoying the car and the car can still be enjoyed and driven in a fun way even with an automatic transmission. Again, not every car enthusiast wants a manual.

Are you going to call the folks who buy SMG BMW M3s and M5s "poseurs"? Because some of those guys are diehard racing enthusiast who purposefully specified this transmission because it would give them advantages in competitive racing on a track etc.

Hell, I am currently driving an automatic BMW 1-Series. I personally would have preferred the manual in this little car, but at the end of the day I have no major issues with the automatic transmission here. It shifts nicely and I can also select the gears I want with the manumatic function (and the response is quick and sporty). I find the 118i Automatic to be a fun little car. And I have testdriven the 118i with the manual - and it's no more fun than the automatic version in my opinion. The majority of driving fun in the 1-Series comes from the way it handles and takes corners if you ask me.

The Lexus IS220d was criticized in Europe for the lack of an automatic transmission option (whereas the IS250 is only available with the automatic here).

[ChrisV]

Spare me the fucking HYPERBOLE and CAPITALIZED WORDS... post like a RATIONAL ADULT and not BILL FRIST.

Until I'm responding to a rational adult, those will do just fine.