An old but interesting article on "history and heritage" and why it works in EU

[ChrisV]

Even though I tend to like German cars a lot more than their Japanese counterparts, I can't say that the Germans are up to snuff, in terms of reliability.

I'lll agree, though I do have to admit, looking at some Lexus cars from the mid '90s vs Mercedes and BMWs from the same era, the Lexus aren't holding up any better, and in some cases are worse.

History and heritage means a lot in many luxury products, and have since the words were coined. I've got a great $50 watch that talls time and has remained accurate for the last 10 years. But it'll never be worth what a Rolex or Brietling will be even if all they have to do is keep time.

[cawimmer430]

We don't care about "heritage" and "history" as it's an extremely poor reason to buy a car.

Let me put it to you this way.

Creating a luxury brand out of the blue and immediately comparing yourself to brands like Mercedes or BMW, which have over 100 years of history, is a NO-NO in Europe. That's one reason why nobody gives Lexus a glance here. If someone wants a luxury car, they want a brand/badge which stands for something - not a brand that started out as rebadged Toyota's or Nissan's. Most people here are willing to pay premium prices for a premium badge. Lexus isn't really considered premium here. They're considered on par with their European competition in many things - except brand prestige. And brand prestige is big here.

Oh, and in the US loyal Toyota customers tend to migrate to Lexus once they want a premium car. Not here. A happy Toyota customer goes to the European luxury brands. Source: Report in an AMS magazine about a year ago.

I think you've got an uphill battle in convincing others, especially those with experience with both cars, that the Germans on average make a more reliable car.

I've said it before: if German cars are so unreliable, then why do people keep coming back to buy them? Eventually logic takes over and if someone keeps experiencing problems with the car then they'll go somewhere else next time.

Here's the truth: not everyone has bad experiences with their German car. Not everyone has a reliable Japanese car. My family has owned many German cars in the past and present and we've had zero major problems with them.

1965 Audi F103 (grandma's car, kept until 1987) - no problems as far as I can remember
1985 Mercedes 300SE - aside from a damaged valve in the motor - nothing. That valve was easily replaced by an MB specialist - problem solved. Engine mileage when this happened: 187,000 km+.
1989 Mercedes 500SL - the only "problematic" thing on this car was the roof mechanism which tended to misalign after a few years (first time in 2005). Problem occurred twice in three years. Took a day to fix and test. Has been fine ever since. Current mileage of that car is 200,000 km+.
2002 Mercedes E320 - zero problems. 117,000 km+ current mileage.
2007 BMW 118i - zero problems. Current mileage 35,000 km+


My friends have German/European cars to. If they had big ass issues with them, I'd know when we talk about such things. In my experience, our cars are reliable enough. Either you guys in America get some weird ass software or you make an elephant out of small problems based on how much the car cost. I mean when I have to read shit like "I would never buy a new Mercedes E-Class because the roofline looks like a previous generation Accord..." I really have to wonder... <--- Yeah, and a Lexus looks (and is) like a God damn Toyota. 

[2o6]

Even so, what current Lexus is a rebadge?



117,000 KM is not a lot. Change that to miles, and typically a Japanese car has held up better with far fewer problems.


For Example, consider Raza's old E-class. 2002, and it already has rust on it and will not start.

[cawimmer430]

Even so, what current Lexus is a rebadge?

HS, ES, LX and GX. Shameless Toyota rebadges. I've seen Lexus ES owners complain about the "Honda Accord roofline" design of the new E-Class. Lexus ES owners? LMAO! They're driving a gussied up Camry for Christ's sake.

^God, I wanted to be mean and get that out of my system!^  

And isn't that new CT200h based on a Matrix or something?

117,000 KM is not a lot. Change that to miles, and typically a Japanese car has held up better with far fewer problems.

100,000 km is a lot.

And if you think Japanese cars are the only ones that hold up so long you need to take a trip down to South America, Africa and parts of Asia where ancient German and French cars (mainly from the 1960s and 1970s as well as '80s) are still going strong after all these years.

Modern cars have become increasingly complex and filled with computers and software. Rest assured that no modern European or even Japanese car will "hold up well" as their ancestors because the DIY factor is long gone.

For Example, consider Raza's old E-class. 2002, and it already has rust on it and will not start.

The W210 had rust issues which were well documented. Only towards the end of its production run (three years before production ended) were the rust issues solved. To their credit, Mercedes, at least in Europe, fixed rust-affected W210's free of charge provided they were brought in early.

I'm not sure what the problem on Raza's engine is but I remember the days on Car and Driver when Raza was a bit younger and perhaps more performance oriented (and driving the wrong car). From what I gather, he drove that E320 hard (kickdown, kickdown, kickdown) etc. We have the same engine in our E320 and we have zero problems. Driving an engine hard etc. will shorten engine lifespan considerably, especially if it wasn't designed for such driving. I'm not saying that there might be an other factor responsible, but knowing his driving style from those days, it might have accelerated the problem...

[2o6]

HS, ES, LX and GX. Shameless Toyota rebadges. I've seen Lexus ES owners complain about the "Honda Accord roofline" design of the new E-Class. Lexus ES owners? LMAO! They're driving a gussied up Camry for Christ's sake.

^God, I wanted to be mean and get that out of my system!^  

And isn't that new CT200h based on a Matrix or something?

For the last freaking time, the HS is shared with the PRIUS NOT THE AVENSIS. The ES may be a Camry underneath, but no bodypanels are shared. The LX and GX have roots with Toyota vehicles, but neither of them share bodyparts.

The CT is Corolla based, but the A3 is Golf based. Your point?



Look at the Profile of the Avensis:




And the HS





100,000KM is only 70K. (newer) Japanese cars have done this with no problems without batting an eye.

[GoCougs]

Let me put it to you this way.

Creating a luxury brand out of the blue and immediately comparing yourself to brands like Mercedes or BMW, which have over 100 years of history, is a NO-NO in Europe. That's one reason why nobody gives Lexus a glance here. If someone wants a luxury car, they want a brand/badge which stands for something - not a brand that started out as rebadged Toyota's or Nissan's. Most people here are willing to pay premium prices for a premium badge. Lexus isn't really considered premium here. They're considered on par with their European competition in many things - except brand prestige. And brand prestige is big here.

Oh, and in the US loyal Toyota customers tend to migrate to Lexus once they want a premium car. Not here. A happy Toyota customer goes to the European luxury brands. Source: Report in an AMS magazine about a year ago.

Yes, I agree on all that. I'm just pointing out that IMO it's not correct to equate Lexus's limited overseas success with its product not being "luxury" or otherwise assuming it's a negative about the product itself.

FWIW for like the 10th time, Lexus is not rebaded Toyotas either then or now. Some models have been rebaded Toyotas (IS300, RX350, a couple of others) but more often than not Lexus models are standalone Lexus-only designs.

I've said it before: if German cars are so unreliable, then why do people keep coming back to buy them? Eventually logic takes over and if someone keeps experiencing problems with the car then they'll go somewhere else next time.

Here's the truth: not everyone has bad experiences with their German car. Not everyone has a reliable Japanese car. My family has owned many German cars in the past and present and we've had zero major problems with them.

1965 Audi F103 (grandma's car, kept until 1987) - no problems as far as I can remember
1985 Mercedes 300SE - aside from a damaged valve in the motor - nothing. That valve was easily replaced by an MB specialist - problem solved. Engine mileage when this happened: 187,000 km+.
1989 Mercedes 500SL - the only "problematic" thing on this car was the roof mechanism which tended to misalign after a few years (first time in 2005). Problem occurred twice in three years. Took a day to fix and test. Has been fine ever since. Current mileage of that car is 200,000 km+.
2002 Mercedes E320 - zero problems. 117,000 km+ current mileage.
2007 BMW 118i - zero problems. Current mileage 35,000 km+

My friends have German/European cars to. If they had big ass issues with them, I'd know when we talk about such things. In my experience, our cars are reliable enough. Either you guys in America get some weird ass software or you make an elephant out of small problems based on how much the car cost. I mean when I have to read shit like "I would never buy a new Mercedes E-Class because the roofline looks like a previous generation Accord..." I really have to wonder... <--- Yeah, and a Lexus looks (and is) like a God damn Toyota. 

You've said it yourself - people are buying these cars for reasons outside the cars themselves; history and heritage and all that. Toyota didn't care about that. It cared about quality, reliability, attention to detail, etc., and as a result the 1990 LS400 was a game changer and but 10 years later Lexus was the top luxury nameplate in the US.

[cawimmer430]

The CT is Corolla based, but the A3 is Golf based. Your point?

I have nothing against platform sharing. Platform sharing makes financial sense for the manufacturer and allows the car to be sold at a more fair price.

Rebadging a Toyota and selling it as a "Lexus" is what I can't understand. And this brings me back to the whole issue of brand prestige and history and heritage. A Lexus might be a fine car but it's still a Lexus: it means nothing to many people. The badge is empty and characterless - a fancy Toyota if you will.

100,000KM is only 70K. (newer) Japanese cars have done this with no problems without batting an eye.

So have tons of European cars.

[cawimmer430]

You've said it yourself - people are buying these cars for reasons outside the cars themselves; history and heritage and all that. Toyota didn't care about that. It cared about quality, reliability, attention to detail, etc., and as a result the 1990 LS400 was a game changer and but 10 years later Lexus was the top luxury nameplate in the US.

There are those who say that Lexus is the luxury brand for the masses and the European luxury brands are for connoisseurs. Essentially, a connoisseur knows what is "special" (brand prestige in this case).

Look, this will go on and on. I'm not saying Lexus are crap, because clearly they're not, but I just find them dull and boring. I don't see why I should buy one when in my experience the European premium cars we've owned have been very reliable and they have a badge that creates an emotional connection. The Lexus badge doesn't do anything for me.

[2o6]

I have nothing against platform sharing. Platform sharing makes financial sense for the manufacturer and allows the car to be sold at a more fair price.

Rebadging a Toyota and selling it as a "Lexus" is what I can't understand. And this brings me back to the whole issue of brand prestige and history and heritage. A Lexus might be a fine car but it's still a Lexus: it means nothing to many people. The badge is empty and characterless - a fancy Toyota if you will.

They aren't rebadges.

There are those who say that Lexus is the luxury brand for the masses and the European luxury brands are for connoisseurs. Essentially, a connoisseur knows what is "special" (brand prestige in this case).

Look, this will go on and on. I'm not saying Lexus are crap, because clearly they're not, but I just find them dull and boring. I don't see why I should buy one when in my experience the European premium cars we've owned have been very reliable and they have a badge that creates an emotional connection. The Lexus badge doesn't do anything for me.

European makes have a smudged reputation in terms of reliability. Yeah, you may feel one way, but Americans drive their cars harder with a LOT less general care in much more severe and varying conditions. Japanese luxury cars have been more reliable and trustworthy in our circumstances. Granted, in Europe the reliability of German makes is much less unreliable, which makes the proposition of a Japanese car not as attractive. But in the US, this is not the case.

[Minpin]

My mom's M-B E320 that we bought new in 04 has 80k miles on it, and no problems. It does tend to burn excessive amounts of oil. I imagine we'll replace it soon, as it has starting leaving oil spots in the garage...

[Onslaught]

No, you wouldn't use it because IT DOES NOT WORK!

BTW, I have a paralel parking option in my Passat that is way much easier to use and it DOES work flawlesly, unlike the one in the Lexus. Oh, and it was first introduced in 2007 (or late 2006) in a Golf based minivan.

Yes but no car needs it. If you can't parallel  park then you shouldn't drive.

[Jon?]

 

Yes but no car needs it. If you can't parallel  park then you shouldn't drive.

Correct.

[MX793]

100,000 km is a lot.

Maybe by European standards where people only drive 6K-8K km a year, but the average American drives 12K-15K miles (19K-24K km) a year.  A 5-year old car with more than 100K km is typical and is what many cars have on the clock when they find their way into the hands of their second owners, who expect several years and another 80K-100K km of relatively problem-free running beyond that.

[cawimmer430]

Maybe by European standards where people only drive 6K-8K km a year, but the average American drives 12K-15K miles (19K-24K km) a year.  A 5-year old car with more than 100K km is typical and is what many cars have on the clock when they find their way into the hands of their second owners, who expect several years and another 80K-100K km of relatively problem-free running beyond that.

There are also many Europeans who drive over 10-15,000 km a year. My family on average does over 10,000 km a year per car. But sure, on a whole we drive less than the average American. Europe is nicely interconnected with rail and flight services. Public transportation is excellent and encouraged through the use of expensive and limited parking spaces.

Many firms that require some of their employees via car use fleet cars, of which the most popular are Volkswagen Passat's. Toyota Reports in the US loves to slam VW and I don't know why. VW's in Europe generally have a good reputation. They might not be as bulletproof as a Toyota but they sure as hell aren't the disaster Toyota Reports makes them out to be.

[cawimmer430]

European makes have a smudged reputation in terms of reliability.

Since when?

Seems to me that we have a generation of newbies (people born since 1990 onwards) who think that European cars have always been unreliable. Must I remind you that before Toyota's became overpriced, got leather and an 'L" badge ( ), Mercedes-Benz was number one in JD Power quality surveys. I'd say of the European brands, MB had by far the best and well-documented quality and reliability.

Also, what do you consider to be reliability? Some people make a big fuzz about a broken cup holder (because their XXXXXXXXXXL Diet Coke can broke it), some people consider a car poor quality when their fuel economy is crap. I've read shit like that on CR (also known as Toyota Reports surveys. This is the reason I think you guys make an elephant out of a fly. Sure, electrical failures do suck and they can happen, but I still think you blow things out of proportion.

Yeah, you may feel one way, but Americans drive their cars harder with a LOT less general care in much more severe and varying conditions.

WHY?

[MX793]

There are also many Europeans who drive over 10-15,000 km a year. My family on average does over 10,000 km a year per car. But sure, on a whole we drive less than the average American. Europe is nicely interconnected with rail and flight services. Public transportation is excellent and encouraged through the use of expensive and limited parking spaces.

And there are many Americans who drive over 30K km annually.  From 2007 thru 2009, I was averaging about 40K km a year.  Overall, Americans drive at least twice as many miles as Europeans.

Many firms that require some of their employees via car use fleet cars, of which the most popular are Volkswagen Passat's. Toyota Reports in the US loves to slam VW and I don't know why. VW's in Europe generally have a good reputation. They might not be as bulletproof as a Toyota but they sure as hell aren't the disaster Toyota Reports makes them out to be.

European VWs are built in Europe.  America's most popular VWs (specifically the Jetta) are built either in South America or Mexico in plants with lax quality control.  The dealership where I bought my Mazda also sold VWs.  I remember sitting in the waiting room while having some general service work done with three Jetta owners who were chatting about the how they had similar recurring problems with their cars.  I had a cousin with a MkIV Jetta that got rid of it because it was always in the shop to address some sort of electrical issue.  IIRC, the Passat (which was German built) generally got at least average reliability ratings in the US.

[Minpin]

Wimmer---

You reek of a butthurt German PO'd cause Germany is not the top in reliability anymore.

[2o6]

WHY?

Many people flat-out do not care about their cars at all.

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer---

You reek of a butthurt German PO'd cause Germany is not the top in reliability anymore.

[cawimmer430]

Many people flat-out do not care about their cars at all.

Then why do they act like jackasses when something goes wrong? 

Car care is important. On any car.

[GoCougs]

There are those who say that Lexus is the luxury brand for the masses and the European luxury brands are for connoisseurs. Essentially, a connoisseur knows what is "special" (brand prestige in this case).

Look, this will go on and on. I'm not saying Lexus are crap, because clearly they're not, but I just find them dull and boring. I don't see why I should buy one when in my experience the European premium cars we've owned have been very reliable and they have a badge that creates an emotional connection. The Lexus badge doesn't do anything for me.

Maybe in Europe but by and large enthusiasts ("connoisseurs") don't buy new Audis/M-Bs/BMWs in America. Luxury cars in America are for people who want to show off their wealth. I can guarantee that 50+% of prospective BMW buyers could not discern between a loaded Accord and a 5er if but for the badges.

I don't think anyone is telling you what car to buy or that emotion isn't a factor but because you don't care much for Lexus or don't see "history" or "heritage" doesn't mean their cars aren't worthy competitors. By definition they are, looking at the drumming Lexus served up in the US - going from absolute zero to market leader in only 10 years, and have held the top position for 10 years since.

[GoCougs]

Less care in the US? 2o6 is just making stuff up.

As to the general issue of German car reliability and their relatively poor showing in the US, my theory is that since only the loaded/top end models are sold in the US not all the bugs are worked out (of the electronics, their Achilles heel). Most everywhere else the more plebeian (i.e., simple models) dominate the sales charts.

[sportyaccordy]

Lol, what does the Mercedes Benz badge "mean"? Does it really have any more "Meaning" than Toyota?

[Onslaught]

Maybe in Europe but by and large enthusiasts ("connoisseurs") don't buy new Audis/M-Bs/BMWs in America. Luxury cars in America are for people who want to show off their wealth. I can guarantee that 50+% of prospective BMW buyers could not discern between a loaded Accord and a 5er if but for the badges.

I agree with this 100%

[SVT666]

I want to know how long a luxury manufacturer has to be around before they have history and heritage.

Now, history and heritage do matter.  Some people buy $5000 watches, $500 bottles of wine, $500 sunglasses, $2500 suits, etc.  Why?  Because of the history and heritage of the product.  Nobody would pay that for a brand name they had never heard of before or for a brand name that is known for average products.

[Laconian]

Toyota's been around since 1937. It has more history and heritage at this point than Mercedes did when it released the 300SL Gullwing.

[AltinD]

Toyota's been around since 1937. It has more history and heritage at this point than Mercedes did when it released the 300SL Gullwing.

No it doesn't. Creating simply means of transportation from A to B is neither heritage nor history.

[GoCougs]

Toyota has the "history" and "heritage" of becoming the world's most successful automaker in addition to literally changing the world of manufacturing with its Toyota Production System (i.e., lean manufacturing). This trumps anything MB, Audi or BMW has ever done IMO.

[nickdrinkwater]

Before I read this thread properly can I just make sure people understand that Wimmer isn't speaking for me when he talks about 'Europeans think this, that and the other'.  No doubt there will be some sweeping generalisations based on these fictional 'Europeans'.

[Jon?]

Before I read this thread properly can I just make sure people understand that Wimmer isn't speaking for me when he talks about 'Europeans think this, that and the other'.  No doubt there will be some sweeping generalisations based on these fictional 'Europeans'.

We assume you hate us for our freedom.  That's about it.