More potential out of warranty luxury car horrors

[Madman]

This is worse that any of Wimmer's posts. Have you ever driven a Genesis?

I haven't driven one, but I've had a good look at one on display at a shopping mall.  I sat inside and found typical Korean/Japanese leather (looks and feels like vinyl) and style-wise they were an obvious rip-off of Mercedes seats.  I don't know if the "wood" on the dash was real or not but it looked like plastic.  The plastics themselves were nothing special.  Okay for a Sonata but not in a car that stickered for $42,000 like this one.  The whole thing just struck me as being just a big car built down to price pretending to be something it's not.

As for the overall styling, it looks like one of those generic "Anycars" you see in bank ads.  This is where Wimmer's "History and Heritage?" argument starts to hold water.  A Mercedes is instantly recognisable as a Mercedes.  A BMW is instantly recognisable as a BMW.  Remove the badges from a Genesis and ask ten people what kind of car it is and you will probably get ten different answers.  If I'm spending big bucks for a car, I want everyone to instantly know what it is.  And besides, $42,000 for a freakin' Hyundai!?!  Are you kidding me!?!

And by all accounts, the Genesis sedan is your typical wallowing barge that corners on it's door handles.  I may be rapidly approaching middle age but I'm not ready for a geezermobile just yet!  The Genesis may be an alternative to a Buick Lucerne, Toyota Avalon or a Mercury Grand Marquis but I honestly can't imagine anyone cross-shopping a Genesis against a Mercedes or BMW.

[Onslaught]

  I don't know if the "wood" on the dash was real or not but it looked like plastic. 

I've been in many a MB and the wood is so shiny that it looks like plastic. I know in my head that it's real wood but it still looks fake in the end.

[sportyaccordy]

TPCA (Toyota Peugeot Citro?n Automobile Czech) manufactures the Toyota Aygo, Peugeot 107 and Citroen C1 in the Czech Republic. These cars are all based on the same platform, share most of the same components and engines and each have a unique style to differentiate them. Looking at the sales list, the Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107 outsell the Aygo here. Interesting, eh?

Ummm you just proved my point... Europeans are more concerned with the badge than the car

Still at a loss as to why this is a good thing I'm sure the Citroen costs more than the Toyota, but for whatever reason it sells more.... not sure why that's something to be proud of; makes you guys seem dumb + shallow + insecure

[Vinsanity]

I haven't driven one, but I've had a good look at one on display at a shopping mall.  I sat inside and found typical Korean/Japanese leather (looks and feels like vinyl) and style-wise they were an obvious rip-off of Mercedes seats.  I don't know if the "wood" on the dash was real or not but it looked like plastic.  The plastics themselves were nothing special.  Okay for a Sonata but not in a car that stickered for $42,000 like this one.  The whole thing just struck me as being just a big car built down to price pretending to be something it's not.

As for the overall styling, it looks like one of those generic "Anycars" you see in bank ads.  This is where Wimmer's "History and Heritage?" argument starts to hold water.  A Mercedes is instantly recognisable as a Mercedes.  A BMW is instantly recognisable as a BMW.  Remove the badges from a Genesis and ask ten people what kind of car it is and you will probably get ten different answers.  If I'm spending big bucks for a car, I want everyone to instantly know what it is.  And besides, $42,000 for a freakin' Hyundai!?!  Are you kidding me!?!

And by all accounts, the Genesis sedan is your typical wallowing barge that corners on it's door handles.  I may be rapidly approaching middle age but I'm not ready for a geezermobile just yet!  The Genesis may be an alternative to a Buick Lucerne, Toyota Avalon or a Mercury Grand Marquis but I honestly can't imagine anyone cross-shopping a Genesis against a Mercedes or BMW.

So, no, you haven't driven one. Because if you have, then you wouldn't have brought up that ridiculous Grand Marquis comparison.

[Madman]

I'm sure the Citroen costs more than the Toyota, but for whatever reason it sells more.... not sure why that's something to be proud of; makes you guys seem dumb + shallow + insecure

The Citroen C1 is actually the cheapest of the three which I'm sure is the reason why it's the most popular.  This isn't a luxury car, it's a small cheap city car aimed at budget concious shoppers.  Cars like this sell on price more than anything else.

[Madman]

So, no, you haven't driven one. Because if you have, then you wouldn't have brought up that ridiculous Grand Marquis comparison.

I already said I haven't driven one, but I had a good poke round the one at the mall.  And I don't think my Grand Marquis comparison is "ridiculous" at all.  If the Genesis appeals to anyone, it will be surely be to older drivers who want a big, comfy, lazy barge who no sporting pretensions whatsoever.  The Genesis is huge inside, so why wouldn't an octogenarian driver want to chop his Grand Marquis in for one?

[sportyaccordy]

I haven't driven one, but I've had a good look at one on display at a shopping mall.  I sat inside and found typical Korean/Japanese leather (looks and feels like vinyl) and style-wise they were an obvious rip-off of Mercedes seats.  I don't know if the "wood" on the dash was real or not but it looked like plastic.  The plastics themselves were nothing special.  Okay for a Sonata but not in a car that stickered for $42,000 like this one.  The whole thing just struck me as being just a big car built down to price pretending to be something it's not.

How original can a seat design be, and if another manufacturer's seat design works why try to reinvent the wheel? "It's V8 was an obvious rip off of Mercedes V8; it has the same firing order and everything..." lol

As for the overall styling, it looks like one of those generic "Anycars" you see in bank ads.  This is where Wimmer's "History and Heritage?" argument starts to hold water.  A Mercedes is instantly recognisable as a Mercedes.  A BMW is instantly recognisable as a BMW.  Remove the badges from a Genesis and ask ten people what kind of car it is and you will probably get ten different answers.  If I'm spending big bucks for a car, I want everyone to instantly know what it is.  And besides, $42,000 for a freakin' Hyundai!?!  Are you kidding me!?!

Cmon now. The new C class IIRC looks like a Corolla from some angles. The new E-class is needlessly angular and has more of the look of an early 00s Korean car in some of its details. Its C pillar is reminiscent of the LS430. The last gen 5, 6, and 7 series were COMPLETELY out of line with BMW's historic design language. The only things tying these cars to their "history and heritage" in appearance was their bagdes.

The Genesis is purposely anonymous, and to some people that's a GOOD thing. After all- many people don't NEED the acknowledgment of a high cachet name brand (nor do they want the costs associated with it), but they do want all the features and the isolation/driving experience of a luxury car. It's the same deal Lexus executed (IMO more successfully) in '89 and it's an idea that falls in line with America's more logical approach to car buying.

And by all accounts, the Genesis sedan is your typical wallowing barge that corners on it's door handles.  I may be rapidly approaching middle age but I'm not ready for a geezermobile just yet!  The Genesis may be an alternative to a Buick Lucerne, Toyota Avalon or a Mercury Grand Marquis but I honestly can't imagine anyone cross-shopping a Genesis against a Mercedes or BMW.

I would say a Genesis is a class above all the cars you mentioned. A Mercury Grand Marquis for god's sake? That car was engineered in the 1970s.

[cawimmer430]

Ummm you just proved my point... Europeans are more concerned with the badge than the car

Still at a loss as to why this is a good thing I'm sure the Citroen costs more than the Toyota, but for whatever reason it sells more.... not sure why that's something to be proud of; makes you guys seem dumb + shallow + insecure

As Madman said, the C1 is the cheapest of the three and looks more funky than the Aygo, which looks downright awful. These cars sell on price, and more recently style/lifestyle. In terms of lifestyle appeal, Toyota is rock bottom here. The Fiat 500 might not be as reliable as any Toyota, but it sure looks damn good, is affordable and its styling is gorgeous and is a way of life for potential buyers. The few problems that might pop up are worth enduring for some people (as many Fiat 500 owners have stated - "The car is so much fun that when something goes wrong, I can forgive it.").

[Vinsanity]

I already said I haven't driven one, but I had a good poke round the one at the mall.  And I don't think my Grand Marquis comparison is "ridiculous" at all.  If the Genesis appeals to anyone, it will be surely be to older drivers who want a big, comfy, lazy barge who no sporting pretensions whatsoever.  The Genesis is huge inside, so why wouldn't an octogenarian driver want to chop his Grand Marquis in for one?

Let's ask this, then:  If the Mercedes E-class appeals to anyone, it will be surely be to older drivers who want a big, comfy, lazy barge who no sporting pretensions whatsoever.  The E-class is huge kinda roomy inside, so why wouldn't an octogenarian driver want to chop his Grand Marquis in for one?

Honestly, all those remarks about cheap plastics and wallowy handling precisely describe the Grand Marquis, but are far-fetched when trying to be applied to the Genesis. If anything, the ride and handling of the Genesis can in fact be compared to the Mercedes E-class, or perhaps a theoretical RWD Volvo S80.

[sportyaccordy]

I already said I haven't driven one, but I had a good poke round the one at the mall.  And I don't think my Grand Marquis comparison is "ridiculous" at all.  If the Genesis appeals to anyone, it will be surely be to older drivers who want a big, comfy, lazy barge who no sporting pretensions whatsoever.  The Genesis is huge inside, so why wouldn't an octogenarian driver want to chop his Grand Marquis in for one?

I would bet the Genesis has much more aggressive springs and dampers than a Grand Marquis just by the very fact that it has a much stiffer chassis

The cars are nowhere close dynamically... here's what BMW & Driver had to say about the Crown Vic they tested in 2004:

"Over the wide-and-smooth, the Crown Vic supplies a mellow cruise if not faithful steering. The front end is loose, enough so that the nose wanders relentlessly on the highway and must be constantly herded in the desired direction. Some more tension in the factory wheel alignment might sharpen the Vic's sense of straight-ahead.

The Sport's upgraded suspension pays its best dividend fighting body roll, keeping the old barge commendably flat in turns. Elsewhere, the extra shock-absorber-and-spring firmness means that bump energy simply gets passed into the floor, seats, steering column, and other jiggly parts of the body. Tire rumble and heavy clunks underfoot signal when the underbody iron?it's a live axle in back?has been put in motion by rougher spots.

Stouter tires than the fleshy Goodyear Eagle LS rubber might make fast driving more fun. When the Vicky is pushed hard, they roll over on their sidewalls and chaos ensues. The front end wants to plow; the back end wants to slide; you want to slow down. The car slithered through the lane change without the aid of an anti-skid system and with its tush all a-wag, setting the slowest speed of 54.3 mph. For rum runners and the heroes of Daytona?circa 1954?the Crown Vic's behavior will wet the eyes with nostalgia."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/04q3/2004_chrysler_300_vs._ford_crown_victoria_pontiac_bonneville-comparison_tests/2004_ford_crown_victoria_lx_page_2

Also it ran a 16 second quarter mile...

Compared to what BMW&D had to say about the V8 Genesis (a low 14 second car BTW):

"Though falling short of the BMW?s sporting standard, the Genesis is better on fast back roads than the cushy Lexus LS460 and way better than the loosey-goosey Toyota Avalon."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/08q4/2009_hyundai_genesis_4.6-road_test/how_does_the_genesis_4.6_stack_up_3f_page_3

So it's no BMW, but outside of the Infiniti M, Jag XF and Audi A6 none of the midsize or fullsize luxury cars can compete with the Bimmer dynamically. I'm sure with some tuning they could at least get the Genesis to match the Benz dynamically... plus they haven't come out w/any sports editions from what I understand. Not a bad effort for a first try IMO

Your narrow mindedness with regards to luxury cars breeds exactly the complacency and overpricing that European brands love.

[AltinD]

Maybe one day you'll drive a modern car and feel first-hand why all the fuss 

[Raza]

I really like the IS-F.  They should sell it with a 6 speed stick.

[sportyaccordy]

Maybe one day you'll drive a modern car and feel first-hand why all the fuss 

Who me? I get to drive them all the time.

[ChrisV]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that in America people research their future purchases and buy them based on their merits according to reviews from Consumer Reports, Kelly Blue Book etc. In effect, the impression I was getting is that they don't buy the car they may like, but rather they buy the car that the majority recommends in various publications.

Fact is, most people have categories of vehicles they think they need, then research to find which car represents the best value/fit for that category. They don't get emotionally invested in it until AFTER they own, and often not even then.

I buy cars I like, either for what they are or for their potential, and maybe figure out a category they might fit in after the fact. I bought my E38 because I love how it looks, sounds, feels, adn works, and how the engineers very obvioulsyl had a direct connection with the company history of both racing and building road handling cars that had a certain "feel" to the way they respond. The engineers have experience in making cars work a certain way and it shows in the way they drive. That "feel" can't be duplicated by running a computer program. The badge on the car, then gives me a reasonable expectation of what that dynamic is going to be, due to knowing the history of the company.

Cars can always rise a bove or fall below that history, either through design OR later owner ability/neglect, so it's always good to keep an open mind about the potential. Which is why I tend to defend almsot all cars on here. But the badge does indeed get connected with a design and engineering philosophy that goes back into history.

Interesting that some of you saying buying a badge on history and heritage is stupid are the SAME ones that avoid/denigrate certain brands DUE to their own historical reputations. As is typical, it's OK to HATE based on history and heritaage, but stupid to LIKE based on those same concepts...

[cawimmer430]

Fact is, most people have categories of vehicles they think they need, then research to find which car represents the best value/fit for that category. They don't get emotionally invested in it until AFTER they own, and often not even then.

I buy cars I like, either for what they are or for their potential, and maybe figure out a category they might fit in after the fact. I bought my E38 because I love how it looks, sounds, feels, adn works, and how the engineers very obvioulsyl had a direct connection with the company history of both racing and building road handling cars that had a certain "feel" to the way they respond. The engineers have experience in making cars work a certain way and it shows in the way they drive. That "feel" can't be duplicated by running a computer program. The badge on the car, then gives me a reasonable expectation of what that dynamic is going to be, due to knowing the history of the company.

Cars can always rise a bove or fall below that history, either through design OR later owner ability/neglect, so it's always good to keep an open mind about the potential. Which is why I tend to defend almsot all cars on here. But the badge does indeed get connected with a design and engineering philosophy that goes back into history.

Interesting that some of you saying buying a badge on history and heritage is stupid are the SAME ones that avoid/denigrate certain brands DUE to their own historical reputations. As is typical, it's OK to HATE based on history and heritaage, but stupid to LIKE based on those same concepts...