More potential out of warranty luxury car horrors

[sportyaccordy]

The suspension on the new 7 series is pretty trick. Aside from being multilink all around with a dual pivot balljoint in front and a trick new H-shaped lower control arm in the rear, it's got some pretty high tech features like angular and vertical accelerometers at each wheel... here's a link to a walkthrough...

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2009/06/2009-bmw-750i-suspension-walkaround.html

Now my question is, what's gonna happen when any of this high tech stuff breaks???? That H-arm is hollow ($$$$$$) and contains a balljoint that I am sure will need replacing. Who's gonna wanna spring for a $1000 control arm??? The accelerometers at each corner are needed to aid in controlling the active suspension, ESP and all that. Can you imagine what will happen when these sensors start going bad?

I know there's a general sense of dread surrounding technology in cars... to a large degree I think it's unwarranted. But in this case I really have to ask; for the demographic this car is aimed at is all of this truly necessary? A brand new Lincoln Town Car rides damn well for something as crude and old as it is- definitely well enough to be chauffered in on even the worst NY streets. I just don't see the point in such incredibly complex, beyond the point of diminishing return kind of technology here, and it really lends credence to my theory that manufacturers have abandoned the idea of producing luxury cars meant to last beyond a lease term.....

[3.0L V6]

Most electronics are pretty reliable these days. You'll likely get more life out of a sensor than an automatic transmission or other mechanical wear component. The suspension should work in some sort of default mode if a sensor dies anyway, so that's not a deal breaker.

The upkeep cost of a 10-20 year old luxury car is pretty much factored into its steep depreciation curve. You can get one for cheap, but unless you're keenly aware of the issues that crop up and can fix them yourself, a used luxury car can cost mega bucks quickly.

BMW is worried about the perception of its new luxury cars, as are all luxury makes. Since luxury cars have a limited shelf life in the public eye before they become dated, automakers naturally try to push the edge in regards to technology to maintain that advantage. I'd suspect that the average ownership span of a luxury car is less than 8 years, so the relative value of maintaining that image beyond that point is limited. Reliability beyond a certain age (say 8-10 years and 120,000 miles) is less important to the brand image of luxury automakers than to mainstream ones. Honda and Toyota have built their reputation around long-term durability, BMW hasn't.

[Rich]

I'm still trying to figure out why luxury manufacturer spend so much on gadgets. If I get enough money I'm going for the one that gives me wood and metal and fabric and leather. The 7, S, 8, 460 still have a ton of plastic inside

[ifcar]

The suspension on the new 7 series is pretty trick. Aside from being multilink all around with a dual pivot balljoint in front and a trick new H-shaped lower control arm in the rear, it's got some pretty high tech features like angular and vertical accelerometers at each wheel... here's a link to a walkthrough...

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2009/06/2009-bmw-750i-suspension-walkaround.html

Now my question is, what's gonna happen when any of this high tech stuff breaks???? That H-arm is hollow ($$$$$$) and contains a balljoint that I am sure will need replacing. Who's gonna wanna spring for a $1000 control arm??? The accelerometers at each corner are needed to aid in controlling the active suspension, ESP and all that. Can you imagine what will happen when these sensors start going bad?

I know there's a general sense of dread surrounding technology in cars... to a large degree I think it's unwarranted. But in this case I really have to ask; for the demographic this car is aimed at is all of this truly necessary? A brand new Lincoln Town Car rides damn well for something as crude and old as it is- definitely well enough to be chauffered in on even the worst NY streets. I just don't see the point in such incredibly complex, beyond the point of diminishing return kind of technology here, and it really lends credence to my theory that manufacturers have abandoned the idea of producing luxury cars meant to last beyond a lease term.....

It's pretty easy to make a car ride well if you don't care how it handles.

[sportyaccordy]

It's pretty easy to make a car ride well if you don't care how it handles.

What percent of the market for 7 drivers cares about handling? I would say it's very low. And if they do care about handling, they're not gonna buy a 5,000# $100K sedan...

Plus you don't need all this hardware to make a luxury car handle well. I would bet the E38 740i Sport rides and handles just as well as these barges w/just struts and a multilink.

[2o6]

What percent of the market for 7 drivers cares about handling? I would say it's very low. And if they do care about handling, they're not gonna buy a 5,000# $100K sedan...

Plus you don't need all this hardware to make a luxury car handle well. I would bet the E38 740i Sport rides and handles just as well as these barges w/just struts and a multilink.

And I'll bet that you're totally wrong.

[r0tor]

state of the art is pretty much expected out of luxury cars

[ifcar]

What percent of the market for 7 drivers cares about handling? I would say it's very low. And if they do care about handling, they're not gonna buy a 5,000# $100K sedan...

Whether they care or not, it's the reason BMW has the cachet to give the 7-Series a base price that's two Town Cars.

Plus you don't need all this hardware to make a luxury car handle well. I would bet the E38 740i Sport rides and handles just as well as these barges w/just struts and a multilink.

But it's not as roomy and quiet.

You don't pay this much because you want to give up anything.

[GoCougs]

As with any used car people will fix them until it's no longer financially feasible to do. No one will take a '90 750iL worth only ~$2,500 in for a front-end rebuild. They'll just drive it till it gets bad and either sell it to the next sucker or junk it.

(Just don't do it Sporty - buy something newer and/or more reliable.)

[sportyaccordy]

As with any used car people will fix them until it's no longer financially feasible to do. No one will take a '90 750iL worth only ~$2,500 in for a front-end rebuild. They'll just drive it till it gets bad and either sell it to the next sucker or junk it.

(Just don't do it Sporty - buy something newer and/or more reliable.)

I'm probably not gonna buy a car for myself for another 3-4 years but thx for playing. Don't see anything in here that implied I was thinking of buying another car...

[BimmerM3]

I think Cougs's point was basically, why do you care so much if it's never going to affect you?

[Madman]

Honda and Toyota have built their reputation around long-term durability, BMW hasn't.

Then why do I see plenty of 20+ year old BMWs, Mercedes Benzes, Volvos, etc on the roads but almost no 20+ year old Hondas, Toyotas or Nissans?

I do agree that cars (especially luxury cars) are getting too complex for their own good.  Speaking as someone who measures length of car ownership in decades and not years, this trend doesn't bode well for any future automotive purchases I may make.  If I buy a car and like it, I will generally keep it until either I or it dies!  I guess I will have to keep the Volvos going for another couple of decades.  Not that I have a problem with that, mind you.....

[ifcar]

Then why do I see plenty of 20+ year old BMWs, Mercedes Benzes, Volvos, etc on the roads but almost no 20+ year old Hondas, Toyotas or Nissans?

Because you notice European cars first?

[Cookie Monster]

Then why do I see plenty of 20+ year old BMWs, Mercedes Benzes, Volvos, etc on the roads but almost no 20+ year old Hondas, Toyotas or Nissans?

I do agree that cars (especially luxury cars) are getting too complex for their own good.  Speaking as someone who measures length of car ownership in decades and not years, this trend doesn't bode well for any future automotive purchases I may make.  If I buy a car and like it, I will generally keep it until either I or it dies!  I guess I will have to keep the Volvos going for another couple of decades.  Not that I have a problem with that, mind you.....

I see tons of old Hondas and Toyotas here...

I think it's because there's no rust. Without rust, those cars will outlast your beloved European cars.

[Rupert]

Then why do I see plenty of 20+ year old BMWs, Mercedes Benzes, Volvos, etc on the roads but almost no 20+ year old Hondas, Toyotas or Nissans?

1) Demographics
2) You don't notice the Toyotas, etc.
3) Volvo, Benz, et al. used to make them to last

Just some ideas.

[TBR]

1) Demographics
2) You don't notice the Toyotas, etc.
3) Volvo, Benz, et al. used to make them to last

Just some ideas.

Euro snobs like Madman frequently forget about #1. High income buyers bring their cars in for everything and probably drive less as well.

[Rupert]

I meant that where he lives, there are more old European cars on the roads. That's not the case here, for instance, but it is elsewhere I have lived.

[Onslaught]

Then why do I see plenty of 20+ year old BMWs, Mercedes Benzes, Volvos, etc on the roads but almost no 20+ year old Hondas, Toyotas or Nissans?

That is not how it is in my area.

[Jon?]

Then why do I see plenty of 20+ year old BMWs, Mercedes Benzes, Volvos, etc on the roads but almost no 20+ year old Hondas, Toyotas or Nissans?

Because people who spent a fortune on their cars either a) wanted to keep them up (because they spent a fortune) or b) had the wherewithal to spend the extra $$$ on maintenance it cost or c) it's being driven by someone who's bought it third hand because of the badge...

[Madman]

Because you notice European cars first?

I'd notice anything that old simply because the crisp, angular lines of a 20+ year old car stands out in a sea of modern, anonymous blobs like a sore thumb.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I wholeheartedly agree that today's cars (especially "luxury" cars) are getting far too complex and it is unlikely any of these cars will have the sort of long service life cars in the past have had.  This unnecessary complexity is the reason why, if I ever have to buy another car, it will probably NOT be from a so-called "luxury" brand.  Most of today's cars simply have too much crap in them to go wrong.  There is something to be said for the elegant simplicity of a "back-to-basics" car.  Sadly, increased legislation and consumer demands for more idiot-proof cars make this sort of simplicity almost impossible.

[CALL_911]

I'd notice anything that old simply because the crisp, angular lines of a 20+ year old car stands out in a sea of modern, anonymous blobs like a sore thumb.

A Volvo's lines are crisp?

Whatever you say, chief.

[Madman]

A Volvo's lines are crisp?

Whatever you say, chief.

I was speaking of 20+ year old cars in general, not just Volvos.

[GoCougs]

These types of cars are not owned for the long term by the people who buy them new - this is also a chief contributor to their massive depreciation - can't find the article now but the majority of luxury cars purchased in the US are leased (IIRC BMW leased was something shocking like 65%).

As to the nuts-n-bolts of the subject at hand, I do not agree that cars, luxury or otherwise, are getting too complex. C'mon guys, at the end of the day, it is widely and objectively known that a new Camry with all the modern conveniences of fuel injection, power windows, AC, ABS, ECU, automatic transmission, etc., is infinitely more durable and reliable than its 1960s equivalent which had NONE of these "complexities." There is every reason to believe that the Camry of 40 years from now will be similarly infinitely more advanced yet infinitely more durable and reliable.

Use this analogy as a boilerplate for pretty much everything else - from radios, to TVs, to planes - these are ALL infinitely more complex today than their fore bearers yet they are infinitely superior in all regards save that we as regular people may not understand how they work and/or that we can't fix them.

[AutobahnSHO]

Use this analogy as a boilerplate for pretty much everything else - from radios, to TVs, to planes - these are ALL infinitely more complex today than their fore bearers yet they are infinitely superior in all regards save that we as regular people may not understand how they work and/or that we can't fix them.

electronics are much worse than 10yrs ago. Used to be the walkman's motor would burn out long before anything else would fail. Lead-less solder SUX. TVs and mp3 players will have failed circuitboards/ solder connections much much sooner than my 13yr old CRT TV will fail...

[2o6]

Luxury automakers aren't targeting Joe Schmoe who may be able to afford one in 10 years, they're going for the people who can afford (and demand) that level of technology and refinement in their cars. If you want something simple, get a Volvo or Acura or something.

[3.0L V6]

electronics are much worse than 10yrs ago. Used to be the walkman's motor would burn out long before anything else would fail. Lead-less solder SUX. TVs and mp3 players will have failed circuitboards/ solder connections much much sooner than my 13yr old CRT TV will fail...

Where they're manufactured and to what standard they're manufactured makes a big difference. The cheapo electronics coming from China are most certainly engineered to a lower standard than a 1980s Toshiba TV. The service life of modern electronics has likely been cut from a design standpoint to meet cost requirements.

A car manufacturer that warrants parts for 5+ years (as opposed to most 90 day warranties on consumer electronics) is likely to have a much longer designed service life.

[SVT_Power]

Where they're manufactured and to what standard they're manufactured makes a big difference. The cheapo electronics coming from China are most certainly engineered to a lower standard than a 1980s Toshiba TV. The service life of modern electronics has likely been cut from a design standpoint to meet cost requirements.

A car manufacturer that warrants parts for 5+ years (as opposed to most 90 day warranties on consumer electronics) is likely to have a much longer designed service life.

Last I heard, cars have a designed "lifespan" of 5 or 10 years or something. And judging from the fact that manufacturers are only legally obligated to make parts for their cars for 10 years after production, the government doesn't think cars should last too long either.

[S204STi]

Typically I'd say that electronics are fairly reliable in modern cars, but suspension is a point at which there is vastly more movement and vibration.  I'd have to assume that you'd have a higher failure rate due to that alone.  But again, like others have pointed out, these cars are about being cutting edge, not 100% trouble-free for 20 years.

[Vinsanity]

Luxury automakers aren't targeting Joe Schmoe who may be able to afford one in 10 years, they're going for the people who can afford (and demand) that level of technology and refinement in their cars. If you want something simple, get a Volvo or Acura or something.

Current-gen Volvos and Acuras aren't even really less complicated than other luxury cars. The days of the Legends and 960's from 1995 are long gone

[sportyaccordy]

These types of cars are not owned for the long term by the people who buy them new - this is also a chief contributor to their massive depreciation - can't find the article now but the majority of luxury cars purchased in the US are leased (IIRC BMW leased was something shocking like 65%).

As to the nuts-n-bolts of the subject at hand, I do not agree that cars, luxury or otherwise, are getting too complex. C'mon guys, at the end of the day, it is widely and objectively known that a new Camry with all the modern conveniences of fuel injection, power windows, AC, ABS, ECU, automatic transmission, etc., is infinitely more durable and reliable than its 1960s equivalent which had NONE of these "complexities." There is every reason to believe that the Camry of 40 years from now will be similarly infinitely more advanced yet infinitely more durable and reliable.

Use this analogy as a boilerplate for pretty much everything else - from radios, to TVs, to planes - these are ALL infinitely more complex today than their fore bearers yet they are infinitely superior in all regards save that we as regular people may not understand how they work and/or that we can't fix them.

Cougs there's a huge difference between the rudimentary standard technologies in a Camry and the deluge of high tech gadgets in a new 7 series. 20 years ago the difference between a Benz and a Toyota was in the ride and build quality. I am guessing since manufacturers like Toyota + Honda have begun to close that gap, luxury manufacturers have decided to capitalize on their fickle markets and go for the tech-wow factor. But on a car like the new 7 I think they have long gone beyond the point of diminishing returns. I would really have to see these systems in action, but I have a strong feeling the avg 7 consumer won't utilize more than 30% of the features they pay for. Just seems silly to me