Authorities skeptical of the new Taurus

[Mustangfan2003]

Michigan law enforcement officials have gathered to run a rodeo with the Ford Police Interceptor, Dodge Charger Pursuit and Chevrolet Caprice police car. The last horse standing will be trying to slide into the spot left by the Ford  Crown Victoria, which sold about 50,000 units per year before going out of production. Ford doesn't have the inside line on replacing its standard bearer, though, because the Taurus-based Police Interceptor is front-wheel drive, and that makes some officers skeptical.

An officer's remark that "It is a whole different driving system" symbolizes the wariness, with concerns not only about cost and complexity, but just being able to drive the thing in the way officers are accustomed. The competition is rear-wheel drive, and in the case of the Caprice ? which ran the police fleet show until it went out of production ? there's more interior room. All the cars have their give-and-take, although the Ford is the only offering with all-wheel drive. Final results from the weekend's testing will be announced in December.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/09/20/report-authorities-skeptical-of-fords-new-police-interceptor-a/

Not really a shock to me.  As you may or may not know my dad works at a part time deputy and the Sheriff wants to hang on to his current fleet of Crown Vics as long as he can.  They were considering getting a Charger but the State Troopers had some issues with them.   

[GoCougs]

The Taurus's packaging is just a mess; too much was sacrificed for styling. The Charger has those issues to a lesser extent too. Know nothing about the Caprice but its cousin the G8 is a better car than either the Taurus or the Charger.

[2o6]

You guys make the Taurus sound as if it's cramped. It isn't.

[Mustangfan2003]

The only concern our Sheriff had about the car is the durability.  Yes I know Ford says it can do this or that but you never really know until you take it out into the real world. 

[Submariner]

My uncle is a state trooper here in Massachusetts - according to him, the 3.5 Chargers are prone to debilitating.  problems.  The Hemi Chargers (of which Massachusetts has a small fleet) have proven to be very reliable, but not cost justifiable. 

There are a limited number of Taurus's running around, none of which are anywhere as durable as the current crop of Dodge or Ford products.  Apparently, they're down more often than the 3.5 chargers, and worse still, cost more to get back up running. 

[Mustangfan2003]

One problem I know that the troopers had with the Chargers is a few of them had the back glass shatter after crossing a median.  I also heard that a few didn't like the rear visibility of the Charger.  Of all the ones we have here I think all of them are V8 cars. 

[bing_oh]

You guys make the Taurus sound as if it's cramped. It isn't.

No first-hand experience with the Taurus, but you have to realize the space requirements in LE vehicles. Space cannot be compaired like in civilian vehicles...this is a vehicle that will be packed with aftermarket equipment that takes up significant space and adds weight and will be used essentially as a rolling office for an officer wearing a duty belt and bullet resistant vest for 8 or more hours a day. Not to mention that there are some pretty physically big officers using these vehicles. Space and comfort is at a premium in LE vehicles.

[bing_oh]

I had doubts as soon as I heard that the Ford Interceptor was going to be FWD or AWD. I can't think of a single successful FWD cruiser...ignoring the benefits of RWD in the way LE drives, the mechanical reliability simply has never been there for FWD in LE work. I suspect that a more complicated system like AWD will be even more prone to mechanical failure in the rough world of LE driving.

I undestand that a redesigned Charger is ebing released in 2011 to compete with the Ford Interceptor and the new Chevy Caprice. Though they've only shown a single "teaser" pic so far, they say that issues like visibility that were complained about so much in the first gen Charger have been addressed. If Dodge has really taken criticisms to heart, then they may have a shot at the LE market.

As for the Caprice, I personally have high hopes. A roomy RWD Chevy with a large motor sounds like a worthy successor to the classic "bumblebee" Caprice I drove when I started (and those were some badass cruisers with the LT1 vette motor, let me tell ya!).

[rohan]

The Taurus's packaging is just a mess; too much was sacrificed for styling. The Charger has those issues to a lesser extent too. Know nothing about the Caprice but its cousin the G8 is a better car than either the Taurus or the Charger.

What issues does the charger have?  After 2006 Dodge did a phenominal job fixing the extremely few electrical issues the cars wiring harness had and the v8 version has suffered very few problems.  My only problem with them is they are prone to being knocked out of alignment a little too easy for my taste- but so are the others with the Impala being the worst.  

My uncle is a state trooper here in Massachusetts - according to him, the 3.5 Chargers are prone to debilitating.  problems.  The Hemi Chargers (of which Massachusetts has a small fleet) have proven to be very reliable, but not cost justifiable.  

There are a limited number of Taurus's running around, none of which are anywhere as durable as the current crop of Dodge or Ford products.  Apparently, they're down more often than the 3.5 chargers, and worse still, cost more to get back up running.  

You're uncle is wrong about the cost of operating them- state purchase bids put the Charger generally at a price advantage (Our State bid puts the v8 charger about $1100 more than a v6 charger and about 1100 more than the CVPI with the Impala being a little cheaper than all the rest. The Macomb County bid is nearly identical to the State bid but gives the Charger a little bigger advantage with preferential purchase meaning that if you purchase 2 or more you get yours before someone only getting 1) and the cost to own and operate them on the v8 is actually a lot better than the CVPI with all around performance and ability so far superior to the CVPI it makes it a non-debate -and the v6 is almost even with the Impala for costs.  

Our cost for the operation of the cars we still have in our fleet per mile including cost break down for all expenses incured with  operating a patrol car but not including the costs of purchasing or installing emergency equipment or other police equipment.  Tires- oil changes- routine maintanance- general repairs- gas- insurance (there's not a cost difference between units they all cost us $3500 per unit per year)
CVPI  .72 per mile
Charger v8   .64 per mile
Impala .59 per mile
Charger v6 .60 per mile

I was there but we got rained out.  I did get a chance to look them all over a little the Ford isn't a bad looking police car - at least not as bad as I thought it would be and it has almost or as much room as the Charger and the trunk space is adequate.  Police admins and officers are just going to have to get used to carrying less stuff- trunks will never be "big" again.  The Caprice is the biggest but the new Charger is easily the most comfortable.  I think Dodge did a great job updating a car which had no honest competition in abilities.  Too bad we didn't see them run but they're rescheduling the tests.  I'm not sure if I'll go or not.  None of them have good "visibility" with the modern high trunk and I think there's no way around that.  With the rain I didn't stay long and didn't really look them over that much- I'm more interested in capability than I am comfort at this point since all 3 are more or less new cars.

I'm not saying it's never happened but we patrol divided freeway and country roads and the only time we've ever had a back window shatter was from vandalism from a guy inside who kicked out the window to try to get out of the car.  We have 8 Chargers right now and honestly we've had some problems with them but it's mostly electrical- and since Dodge worked on the cars the problems are gone or at least seem to be gone.    

Also I'ld add that our current gen Impalas have been surprisingly rugged we've had no drivetrain problems for the fwd  allignment issues sure but no real mechanical breakdowns.  The only problem with the Imps is limited handling ability and limited room.  Brakes are actually a lot tougher than we thought they would be.  I'm not a lover of them but I'm sold on them as a general use patrol unit as well as the Dodge and I actually like the Ford but we all know it's history there and it's just time to let it go.

[rohan]

No first-hand experience with the Taurus, but you have to realize the space requirements in LE vehicles. Space cannot be compaired like in civilian vehicles...this is a vehicle that will be packed with aftermarket equipment that takes up significant space and adds weight and will be used essentially as a rolling office for an officer wearing a duty belt and bullet resistant vest for 8 or more hours a day. Not to mention that there are some pretty physically big officers using these vehicles. Space and comfort is at a premium in LE vehicles.

Right.  Which is why they mount the shifter on the column to free up the console area for our stuff.  It also adds wind resistance - even the small modern bars which cuts fuel mileage and lessens some cars ability to perform.  It's not as bad as it used to be but anytime you put a solid bar across the top you hurt over all performance.  Our old Streethawk bars had the reputation of cutting 5-8 mph off the top end and almost 2 seconds to 100 it's not that bad now.

I had doubts as soon as I heard that the Ford Interceptor was going to be FWD or AWD. I can't think of a single successful FWD cruiser...ignoring the benefits of RWD in the way LE drives, the mechanical reliability simply has never been there for FWD in LE work. I suspect that a more complicated system like AWD will be even more prone to mechanical failure in the rough world of LE driving.

I undestand that a redesigned Charger is ebing released in 2011 to compete with the Ford Interceptor and the new Chevy Caprice. Though they've only shown a single "teaser" pic so far, they say that issues like visibility that were complained about so much in the first gen Charger have been addressed. If Dodge has really taken criticisms to heart, then they may have a shot at the LE market.

As for the Caprice, I personally have high hopes. A roomy RWD Chevy with a large motor sounds like a worthy successor to the classic "bumblebee" Caprice I drove when I started (and those were some badass cruisers with the LT1 vette motor, let me tell ya!).

The FWD can't perform as well as the RWD in our field because the physics just don't work in it's favor.  FWD's have to do 3 things at once at the front tires  - power- steer- brake.   RWD only has to do 2 and the tires prefer it that way.   

[NomisR]

You're uncle is wrong about the cost of operating them-

Ummm.. I think you misread what he wrote, he never said the Charger cost more to maintain, at least from what you've quoted.  He said the Taurus cost more to maintain than the Chargers and broke down more.

[MX793]

What issues does the charger have?  After 2006 Dodge did a phenominal job fixing the extremely few electrical issues the cars wiring harness had and the v8 version has suffered very few problems.  My only problem with them is they are prone to being knocked out of alignment a little too easy for my taste- but so are the others with the Impala being the worst. 

He was referring to packaging issues, not mechanical.  Both the Taurus and Charger have compromised interior space and visibility in the name of exterior styling.

[ifcar]

You guys make the Taurus sound as if it's cramped. It isn't.

Its packaging is still poor. It's a massive vehicle without any more usable space than the Fusion, except in the trunk. Better than the Impala, but still poor. 

[rohan]

Ummm.. I think you misread what he wrote, he never said the Charger cost more to maintain, at least from what you've quoted.  He said the Taurus cost more to maintain than the Chargers and broke down more.

Ummmmm.. no he mentioned according to his uncle- a MSP- that the chargers are a) v6's prone to breakdowns    b) v8's are expensive to the point they aren't fiscally justifiable.....

My uncle is a state trooper here in Massachusetts - according to him, the 3.5 Chargers are prone to debilitating.  problems.  The Hemi Chargers (of which Massachusetts has a small fleet) have proven to be very reliable, but not cost justifiable. 

......  Apparently, they're down more often than the 3.5 chargers, and worse still, cost more to get back up running. 

Also since the Taurus hasn't been offered for service duty for more than a couple months there's no data that's worth anything about their reliabitly- either for ar against it.  It's like saying the New Durango is unreliable because ones from 1992 were.  What the 1993 or whatever Taurus was in the way of reliability or useability don't have anything to do with what the 2011 Taurus does.  Or for that matter a civilian 2010 Taurus did-

[rohan]

He was referring to packaging issues, not mechanical.  Both the Taurus and Charger have compromised interior space and visibility in the name of exterior styling.

The only place the Charger has issues is in the rear seat- for police it's a non-issue because we don't want bad-guys having lots of room anyway.  In the front the Charger is superior in every respect to the CVPI- and at least as superior to the Imp.  High trunk lines and smaller windows are just something police are going to have to adjust to because that's how cars are being designed.  And- it's funny because you guys (some guys) here regularly talk about how huge the Taurus is-

[Submariner]

  Ummmmm.. no he mentioned according to his uncle- a MSP- that the chargers are a) v6's prone to breakdowns    b) v8's are expensive to the point they aren't fiscally justifiable.....
   


Also since the Taurus hasn't been offered for service duty for more than a couple months there's no data that's worth anything about their reliabitly- either for ar against it.  It's like saying the New Durango is unreliable because ones from 1992 were.  What the 1993 or whatever Taurus was in the way of reliability or useability don't have anything to do with what the 2011 Taurus does.  Or for that matter a civilian 2010 Taurus did-

Data vs. real world experience?  Numerous problems in the first few months of service can be a good indicator of what is to come.

That being said...maybe he was talking about the 500/Taurus model, Taurus. 

[Catman]

Nice photo gallery here:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Site=C4&Date=20100918&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=9180802&Ref=PH&Params=Itemnr=1

The Caprice is nice but their failure to move the shifter to the column is a bad mistake.  Other than that it appears to be a stellar config.  I am confident the Taurus will hold up.  And, I like the idea of an AWD cruiser.  As it is now the CVPI is useless in bad weather.

[Catman]

I like what I see with the Caprice

[Mustangfan2003]

I'll take one unmarked Charger please

[the Teuton]

More detailed commentary on the whole thing:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/between-the-lines-for-police-every-week-is-panther-appreciation-week/

[Madman]

Not to mention that there are some pretty physically big officers using these vehicles. Space and comfort is at a premium in LE vehicles.

Physically big?  Is that cop-speak for FAT?  Yeah, I see lots of "physically big" cops in my neck of the woods, too! 

[bing_oh]

Physically big?  Is that cop-speak for FAT?  Yeah, I see lots of "physically big" cops in my neck of the woods, too! 

Yea, there are fat cops. There are also cops built like NFL linebackers. Both have issues when it comes to room in a cruiser.

[bing_oh]

The Caprice is nice but their failure to move the shifter to the column is a bad mistake.

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the early release photos. The center console just has to be clear for lightboxes and radios. And, speaking of radios, the location Chevy has put them in the demo vehicles (back at the rear of the center console between the seatbacks) is a horrible indicator that somebody doesn't understand ergonomics and how certain equipment must be mounted in easily-accessable locations in a cruiser.

[GoCougs]

He was referring to packaging issues, not mechanical.  Both the Taurus and Charger have compromised interior space and visibility in the name of exterior styling.

Yep. Using the smaller G8 as a proxy for the Caprice, it didn't have such issues.

[thewizard16]

This doesn't surprise me. I hope they work something out though. I was talking to a city cop the other day and I did mention that I noticed they all still had the old crown vics (their fleet is starting to look dated compared to the state troopers and even State Capitol and UAMS police which use Chargers). He said the department wasn't wild about the Chargers as a replacement and were still trying to decide what to replace the Crown Vics with in the long run, but in the meantime, they were just keeping them all running. I have to think they've bought a few new cars in the last year or two though, so I wonder what they bought. All I've ever seen from them are the Crown Vics.

[Mustangfan2003]

I'd say most departments will go with the Dodge or the Chevy but I could see some being a bit hesitant about getting a Caprice because GM has a habit about not keeping cars on the market very long. 

[Catman]

Dealer network is a big deciding factor as well.  Around here Ford is 100% better supported than the other two.

[Byteme]

This doesn't surprise me. I hope they work something out though. I was talking to a city cop the other day and I did mention that I noticed they all still had the old crown vics (their fleet is starting to look dated compared to the state troopers and even State Capitol and UAMS police which use Chargers). He said the department wasn't wild about the Chargers as a replacement and were still trying to decide what to replace the Crown Vics with in the long run, but in the meantime, they were just keeping them all running. I have to think they've bought a few new cars in the last year or two though, so I wonder what they bought. All I've ever seen from them are the Crown Vics.

I guess this also means that the supply of used CVPI's in decent condition that go to auction for sale to the public will dry up because some departments will start to wring every last usable mile out of them before they are replaced.

[Catman]

I guess this also means that the supply of used CVPI's in decent condition that go to auction for sale to the public will dry up because some departments will start to wring every last usable mile out of them before they are replaced.

Fair assessment

[2o6]

Aren't Taurus SHO's having issues with transmission failure?