Just why is this illegal?

[Byteme]

Returning from shopping Saturday we observed a car coming in the opposite direction, periodically flashing his lights at oncoming mororists.  Know the street is a frequent haven for cops with radar/laser guns we could only conclude he was warning oncoming traffic of the upcoming speed trap.  This, in turn, prompeted a debate of the merits and legalities of warning other motorists of the speed trap (it's apparently illegal to do this in some locals).

So why is  it illegal for a citizen to warn other citizens of a speed trap down the road?  I'd contend that letting someone else know of a speed trap and causing them to slow down to the speed limit and obey the law (if they were speeding in the first place) would be worthy of praise, not potential arrest. 

[VTEC_Inside]

There was a reporter charged (something about flashing lights) for doing this in Toronto. He challenged it and it was thrown out.

Its perfectly legal to do so around here.

[omicron]

Off the record, because law-abiding traffic limits revenue. On the record, because a flash of headlights is distracting to other drivers/is not in response to a hazardous situation/is inappropriate in clear conditions, or some other literal idiocy.

[bing_oh]

Returning from shopping Saturday we observed a car coming in the opposite direction, periodically flashing his lights at oncoming mororists.  Know the street is a frequent haven for cops with radar/laser guns we could only conclude he was warning oncoming traffic of the upcoming speed trap.  This, in turn, prompeted a debate of the merits and legalities of warning other motorists of the speed trap (it's apparently illegal to do this in some locals).

So why is  it illegal for a citizen to warn other citizens of a speed trap down the road?  I'd contend that letting someone else know of a speed trap and causing them to slow down to the speed limit and obey the law (if they were speeding in the first place) would be worthy of praise, not potential arrest.

Nice way of phrasing it, but we both know that flasing lights to warn motorists of traffic enforcement isn't encouraging them to obey the law but to avoid enforcement of the law they're already breaking. Let's say that I'm a drug dealer and I've got a lookout down the street who tells me not to sell because the cops are coming. He's not encouraging me to obey the law, he's assisting me in my criminal activities by helping me get away with breaking the law. While the seriousness of the offense is different, the idea behind it is the same.

As for the initial question of why is it illegal, it isn't per se illegal in Ohio. Now, I could get creative and charge somebody with failure to dim. If I wanted to get really creative, I might even try criminal and charge obstructing official business. But the action of flashing your lights to warn of traffic enforcement isn't specifically illegal under the Ohio Revised Code.

[NomisR]

Now, I could get creative and charge somebody with failure to dim.

I wish you guys would actually start pulling people over more often for driving around with high beams on because I'm noting that more and more now.  And it's not those annoying ultra brights, but actual high beams.  And those little shits are usually people who drive slow so there's no way I can slow down enough without holding up traffic for them to pass and high beam them. 

[Vinsanity]

I'd imagine the courts would have to be pretty corrupt for a criminal charge to stick for flashing a damn high-beam. If the cops are running speed enforcement on the side of the road, wouldn't the reason for that be for people to slow down? And wouldn't flashing high-beams accomplish that objective?

[bing_oh]

I wish you guys would actually start pulling people over more often for driving around with high beams on because I'm noting that more and more now.  And it's not those annoying ultra brights, but actual high beams.  And those little shits are usually people who drive slow so there's no way I can slow down enough without holding up traffic for them to pass and high beam them.

I pull people over all the time for failure to dim. It's a great DUI indicator stop.

[Byteme]

Nice way of phrasing it, but we both know that flasing lights to warn motorists of traffic enforcement isn't encouraging them to obey the law but to avoid enforcement of the law they're already breaking. Let's say that I'm a drug dealer and I've got a lookout down the street who tells me not to sell because the cops are coming. He's not encouraging me to obey the law, he's assisting me in my criminal activities by helping me get away with breaking the law. While the seriousness of the offense is different, the idea behind it is the same.

As for the initial question of why is it illegal, it isn't per se illegal in Ohio. Now, I could get creative and charge somebody with failure to dim. If I wanted to get really creative, I might even try criminal and charge obstructing official business. But the action of flashing your lights to warn of traffic enforcement isn't specifically illegal under the Ohio Revised Code.

Not the same thing at all in my opinion.  In my example you have a citizen warning other drivers, who may or may not be speeding, of a speed trap ahead.  There's no pre-thought out motive to break the law; the citizen doesn't conspire with other motorists to help them break the law.  The citizen is simply warning other drivers of potential police action.  There is really lettle difference between this and the signs warning of radar enforcement of speed limits you see in some jusisdictions.  The only dfferences are who is doing the warning and how specific the warning is. 

The drug dealer and his lookout are on the street to sell drugs.  His lookout is there specifically to help him.  Both have conspired specifically to perform an illegal act.  Big difference.   

A question:  If I were to walk up to a guy I'd never seen before who may or may not be selling drugs and simply say aloud as I walked by "you know, there is a cop parked around the corner" could I be arrested for something?


If the purpose of speed enforcement is to cause drivers to slow down the citizen in my example is actually helping the police, not hindering them in doing their job.

[bing_oh]

I'd imagine the courts would have to be pretty corrupt for a criminal charge to stick for flashing a damn high-beam. If the cops are running speed enforcement on the side of the road, wouldn't the reason for that be for people to slow down? And wouldn't flashing high-beams accomplish that objective?

Technically, the violation fits...

ORC 2921.31 Obstructing official business. No person, without privilege to do so and with purpose to prevent, obstruct, or delay the performance by a public official of any authorized act within the public official?s official capacity, shall do any act that hampers or impedes a public official in the performance of the public official?s lawful duties.

Now, would it fly in court? No idea. I've never tried it.

As for the argument that flashing lights accomplishes the same thing as traffic enforcement by a LEO, I don't think so. Flashing lights slows people down until they're out of sight of the cruiser. Traffic enforcement is supposed to deter a little better than that. I think we both know BS when we smell it, so let's just skip that argument, shall we?

[Byteme]

Technically, the violation fits...

Now, would it fly in court? No idea. I've never tried it.

As for the argument that flashing lights accomplishes the same thing as traffic enforcement by a LEO, I don't think so. Flashing lights slows people down until they're out of sight of the cruiser. Traffic enforcement is supposed to deter a little better than that. I think we both know BS when we smell it, so let's just skip that argument, shall we?

It's been my experience in about 44 years of driving that people tend to slow down when they see a speed trap or a cruiser stopped by the side of the road and speed up as soon as it's out of sight behind them.   Some guy flashes his lights and people who saw that and were speeding and understand what it means slow down until they either see the officer or until they think a safe disctance has been driven.

And if I just flash my low beams how could you arrest me for failure to dim?

[MX793]

Speaking of flashing high beams, has anybody else noticed that more and more people have become oblivious to such signals?  Last night I come upon a car at a traffic light that did not have its lights on.  When oncoming traffic was clear (so they wouldn't think I was flashing at them), I flashed my brights.  No response.  I did it again.  No response.  Then I turned my headlights off and back on again.  Moron still didn't get it (or didn't notice).  Then they turned off down a side road.  These weren't particularly well lit roads and the nearest I could figure was their car had DRLs which were bright enough that they didn't realize their lights were off.  All the more reason why DRLs aren't all they're cracked up to be (unless they're the kind that illuminates the markers rather than the main beams).

Then a mile later there's an oncoming car with their high beams on (following another car which I'm sure was pissing that driver off) and I flashed my brights at them and they paid no notice whatsoever.

[Rupert]

I generally figure that if I'm flashing my brights at someone, it's more revenge for not turning theirs off than it is a reminder.

[Pancor]

Around here, flashing the high beams can serve as a warning for many things besides a silly traffic cop, like a tree on the road, kids around the corner, etc....   

[Vinsanity]

Nice way of phrasing it, but we both know that flasing lights to warn motorists of traffic enforcement isn't encouraging them to obey the law but to avoid enforcement of the law they're already breaking.

Right, just like like we all know that speed limit enforcement is more about revenue than safety. Moving along...

[bing_oh]

Right, just like like we all know that speed limit enforcement is more about revenue than safety. Moving along...

If you say so. Personally, I've never gotten a raise (or a toaster oven) for writing the most speeding tickets, so I've never understood that belief. I have no quota and havn't worked for a department for many years that has had one. I could care less if the court or the state gets money from the tickets I write (and that's where the money goes...the court and the state...the money made by my department is miniscule).

[bing_oh]

Not the same thing at all in my opinion.  In my example you have a citizen warning other drivers, who may or may not be speeding, of a speed trap ahead.  There's no pre-thought out motive to break the law; the citizen doesn't conspire with other motorists to help them break the law.  The citizen is simply warning other drivers of potential police action.  There is really lettle difference between this and the signs warning of radar enforcement of speed limits you see in some jusisdictions.  The only dfferences are who is doing the warning and how specific the warning is. 

The drug dealer and his lookout are on the street to sell drugs.  His lookout is there specifically to help him.  Both have conspired specifically to perform an illegal act.  Big difference.   

A question:  If I were to walk up to a guy I'd never seen before who may or may not be selling drugs and simply say aloud as I walked by "you know, there is a cop parked around the corner" could I be arrested for something?

If the purpose of speed enforcement is to cause drivers to slow down the citizen in my example is actually helping the police, not hindering them in doing their job.

For you to argue that you're helping and not hindering LE by flashing your lights, then you'd have to be doing it to every car regardless as to whether or not there's traffic enforcement ahead. In that case, your intention would clearly be to try to slow down oncoming traffic...just like those signs about radar enforcement.

You can phrase it and argue it however you like but we both know the truth of what you're doing and why when you flash your lights.

[Byteme]

For you to argue that you're helping and not hindering LE by flashing your lights, then you'd have to be doing it to every car regardless as to whether or not there's traffic enforcement ahead. In that case, your intention would clearly be to try to slow down oncoming traffic...just like those signs about radar enforcement.

You can phrase it and argue it however you like but we both know the truth of what you're doing and why when you flash your lights.

 If that were true you should be ticketing every speeder, not just a few of them. 


The truth is speed enforcement is as much, if not more,  about revenue than safety.



See:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourCar/speeding-youll-pay-higher-taxes.aspx

http://www.ridelust.com/michigan-police-chiefs-admit-speeding-tickets-are-about-money/

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/02/08/slow_recession_ahead/

http://express-press-release.net/14/Speeding%20Tickets-A%20Multibillion%20Dollar%20Industry.php

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,490629,00.htm

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/blog/2010/09/randolph_gets_pulled_over_for_its_handling_of_speeding_ticket_revenue.html

[VTEC_Inside]

Speaking of flashing high beams, has anybody else noticed that more and more people have become oblivious to such signals?  Last night I come upon a car at a traffic light that did not have its lights on.  When oncoming traffic was clear (so they wouldn't think I was flashing at them), I flashed my brights.  No response.  I did it again.  No response.  Then I turned my headlights off and back on again.  Moron still didn't get it (or didn't notice).  Then they turned off down a side road.  These weren't particularly well lit roads and the nearest I could figure was their car had DRLs which were bright enough that they didn't realize their lights were off.  All the more reason why DRLs aren't all they're cracked up to be (unless they're the kind that illuminates the markers rather than the main beams).

Then a mile later there's an oncoming car with their high beams on (following another car which I'm sure was pissing that driver off) and I flashed my brights at them and they paid no notice whatsoever.

Yep. It bothers me particularly when the weather has gone to shit and cars disappear (essentially) into the rain not too far ahead. I'll give a quick flash and then turn my lights on/off. A couple of them have actually gotten the clue, others, nothing. Depending on how oblivious they seem, I'll just flick my brights on solid and leave them that way until they either finally get it, or move over.

[Byteme]

Yep. It bothers me particularly when the weather has gone to shit and cars disappear (essentially) into the rain not too far ahead. I'll give a quick flash and then turn my lights on/off. A couple of them have actually gotten the clue, others, nothing. Depending on how oblivious they seem, I'll just flick my brights on solid and leave them that way until they either finally get it, or move over.

In many states, Florida and Texas for example, it a law that one has to turn on their lights when it's raining (that's a simplification, but.......). 

In the interest of safety cops should be pulling over and ticketing drivers who don't comply with that law.

[Raza]

Nice way of phrasing it, but we both know that flasing lights to warn motorists of traffic enforcement isn't encouraging them to obey the law but to avoid enforcement of the law they're already breaking. Let's say that I'm a drug dealer and I've got a lookout down the street who tells me not to sell because the cops are coming. He's not encouraging me to obey the law, he's assisting me in my criminal activities by helping me get away with breaking the law. While the seriousness of the offense is different, the idea behind it is the same.

As for the initial question of why is it illegal, it isn't per se illegal in Ohio. Now, I could get creative and charge somebody with failure to dim. If I wanted to get really creative, I might even try criminal and charge obstructing official business. But the action of flashing your lights to warn of traffic enforcement isn't specifically illegal under the Ohio Revised Code.

Yes, it's exactly like being a lookout for a drug dealer. 

[Raza]

In many states, Florida and Texas for example, it a law that one has to turn on their lights when it's raining (that's a simplification, but.......). 

In the interest of safety cops should be pulling over and ticketing drivers who don't comply with that law.

It's a law in New Jersey and recently Pennsylvania as well. 

[giant_mtb]

Is it illegal for truckers to CB to other truckers about upcoming officers running radar on the side of the freeway then, too?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

It's a law in New Jersey and recently Pennsylvania as well. 

Ohio too.

[bing_oh]

If that were true you should be ticketing every speeder, not just a few of them. 

The truth is speed enforcement is as much, if not more,  about revenue than safety.

See:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourCar/speeding-youll-pay-higher-taxes.aspx

http://www.ridelust.com/michigan-police-chiefs-admit-speeding-tickets-are-about-money/

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/02/08/slow_recession_ahead/

http://express-press-release.net/14/Speeding%20Tickets-A%20Multibillion%20Dollar%20Industry.php

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,490629,00.htm

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/blog/2010/09/randolph_gets_pulled_over_for_its_handling_of_speeding_ticket_revenue.html

I'll concede that it might be for the state and even the court, but the average street officer doesn't give a damn about the income brought in by the citations they write. The money generated means absolutely, positively nothing to us.

[bing_oh]

Yes, it's exactly like being a lookout for a drug dealer.

a?nal?o?gy
[uh-nal-uh-jee]

?noun, plural -gies. 
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2. similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3. Biology . an analogous relationship.
4. Linguistics .
a. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon  was re-formed as shoes,  when -ize  is added to nouns like winter  to form verbs, or when a child says foots  for feet.
b. a form resulting from such a process.
5. Logic . a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

[Byteme]

I'll concede that it might be for the state and even the court, but the average street officer doesn't give a damn about the income brought in by the citations they write. The money generated means absolutely, positively nothing to us.

That's why I read your posts, you are reasonable.

What you say is likely true of most officers.  They cites I posted (and there were many more, just google "revenue from speeding tickets") did mention there were instances where the officers were "incentivized" to write ticketsin order to ensure no budget cuts to their department.  In those cases, Which I would hope are rare, the officer on the street would have a vested interest.

[James Young]

You can phrase it and argue it however you like but we both know the truth of what you're doing and why when you flash your lights.

Sort of like LEO's argument that not citing other LEOs is but mere discretion.

[giant_mtb]

I was passed by a Sheriff van going at least 70 (I gave up gauging his speed when I hit 70) in a 55 yesterday on my way back downstate.  No lights.  No siren.  The middle of a 24-mile straight stretch of literal nothingness.  No need for covertness.  I considered calling 911 or saying something on the CB, but didn't.  Wouldn't help/change anything.  Plus I had no cell phone service anyways.

[NomisR]

In many states, Florida and Texas for example, it a law that one has to turn on their lights when it's raining (that's a simplification, but.......). 

In the interest of safety cops should be pulling over and ticketing drivers who don't comply with that law.

It's also a law in CA.  But over a half of the time I've seen officers in the rain here, guess what.. no head lights.  But then again.. I've never seen anyone pulled over for no head lights in the rain either... or at night for that matter.. which I've seen way too often as well.

[BimmerM3]

It's a law in New Jersey and recently Pennsylvania as well. 

Georgia too. I always assumed it was law everywhere.

Sort of like LEO's argument that not citing other LEOs is but mere discretion.

Or like the time my buddy had a cop physically get in front of him and slow him down in lieu of pulling him over because he has a military parking sticker on his car... or the time I got pulled over and was released with a warning instead of a ticket because I was in my step-mom's car and she has five "Georgia Fraternal Order of Police" stickers on the back of her car.