"Unstable Vehicles"? A Mater of Speaking...

[2o6]

Did you crash because your wheels locked and you couldn't steer, or did you crash because you couldn't stop short enough?  If the former, ABS probably would have helped.  If the latter, it might not have.

Probably from too long of a stop. If I steered into oncoming traffic, I would have hit another car head on.



I tried steering but I didn't realize that it does nothing with locked wheels.

[thewizard16]

If I had ABS, I wouldn't have gotten into an accident today.


Guess I'm unfit to drive, huh?

ABS has saved my ass a couple times. No one can pump their brakes faster than a computer regardless of reflexes, so I'm a big fan of ABS.

"let's not spend ANY money on teaching people how to drive. Instead, we'll force everyone to spend money COMPENSATING for the fact we won't teach them how to drive."

How GD backwards. And then watch what happens when their electronic crutch breaks.

As far as ESC goes, the same idea applies. No human, anywhere, is capable of reacting as quickly as an ESC system to help prevent/correct a slide, and there's no way to apply individual wheel braking without systems like those anyway. Being a better driver will probably help you avoid more accidents, and being better at emergency maneuvering may help you in poor road conditions, but these systems only serve to help you more.
Lack of skill has nothing to do with it, really. Yes, we let hilariously incompetent people on the road, and yes they cause accidents, but even the best drivers benefit from these systems. It's not just a "compensatory" device, it's a safety feature, just like pre-tensioning seatbelts and airbags. It doesn't matter if you're a Formula 1 driver, you still stand to gain from having these things on your car. Sure, you should be able to turn it off if you want to take your car out to a track or something and play, but for the other 99.9% of the time, there is no downside to having these systems on your car. Engineering and technology are all about advances. We have better suspensions, better headlights, better frame designs, and better tires than we used to thanks to engineering and technology advances, and these electronic systems are the products of that too.
As far as "electronic crutches breaking" . There's really no more likelihood of the electronic safety features failing than of the mechanical parts failing, so I fail to see that as a legitimate concern. And even if the "crutch" breaks, big deal, right? You just lose the more advanced system and still have all the basic systems. For the very rare instances where the system would fail, you still have the same capabilities you'd have had without it, so it's not like it's a net loss, even for the incompetent driver. If they were bad drivers before, the electronic safety system isn't going to make them a worse driver if it breaks. They're still just bad drivers with cars that are now less likely to slide into you and kill you.

[AltinD]

I'm rolling my eyes at you as hard as I can.

Let it be an option. Let it be defeatable. But lets not require it on every vehicle for that vehicle to be "competitive" or even legal.

"let's not spend ANY money on teaching people how to drive. Instead, we'll force everyone to spend money COMPENSATING for the fact we won't teach them how to drive."

How GD backwards. And then watch what happens when their electronic crutch breaks.

And why not have both? Europeans have always got much tougher driving training and licencing, and at the same time ESC has been the norm in thewir cars for at least a decade.

[SVT666]

ABS has saved my ass a couple times. No one can pump their brakes faster than a computer regardless of reflexes, so I'm a big fan of ABS. As far as ESC goes, the same idea applies. No human, anywhere, is capable of reacting as quickly as an ESC system to help prevent/correct a slide, and there's no way to apply individual wheel braking without systems like those anyway. Being a better driver will probably help you avoid more accidents, and being better at emergency maneuvering may help you in poor road conditions, but these systems only serve to help you more.
Lack of skill has nothing to do with it, really. Yes, we let hilariously incompetent people on the road, and yes they cause accidents, but even the best drivers benefit from these systems. It's not just a "compensatory" device, it's a safety feature, just like pre-tensioning seatbelts and airbags. It doesn't matter if you're a Formula 1 driver, you still stand to gain from having these things on your car. Sure, you should be able to turn it off if you want to take your car out to a track or something and play, but for the other 99.9% of the time, there is no downside to having these systems on your car. Engineering and technology are all about advances. We have better suspensions, better headlights, better frame designs, and better tires than we used to thanks to engineering and technology advances, and these electronic systems are the products of that too.
As far as "electronic crutches breaking" . There's really no more likelihood of the electronic safety features failing than of the mechanical parts failing, so I fail to see that as a legitimate concern. And even if the "crutch" breaks, big deal, right? You just lose the more advanced system and still have all the basic systems. For the very rare instances where the system would fail, you still have the same capabilities you'd have had without it, so it's not like it's a net loss, even for the incompetent driver. If they were bad drivers before, the electronic safety system isn't going to make them a worse driver if it breaks. They're still just bad drivers with cars that are now less likely to slide into you and kill you.

ABS saved my ass (or rather my car's ass) yesterday.  Some idiot made a left turn across my lane right in front of me and I had to stand on the brakes...in the wet.  Without ABS I would have plowed right into them.

[sportyaccordy]

ABS saved my ass (or rather my car's ass) yesterday.  Some idiot made a left turn across my lane right in front of me and I had to stand on the brakes...in the wet.  Without ABS I would have plowed right into them.

You should have had more mastery of your car at the limits of adhesion.

[MrH]

Probably from too long of a stop. If I steered into oncoming traffic, I would have hit another car head on.



I tried steering but I didn't realize that it does nothing with locked wheels.

[sportyaccordy]

The kid is like 17 years old, give him a fucking break. Were you well versed in automotive physics at that age?

[Byteme]

Safety Watch: Nine 2011 Vehicles That Still Lack Stability Control*

Report: CarConnection

On: Nov 12, 2010 10:46 pm

By: Bengt Halvorson

If you could check the box for a safety feature that's been shown to dramatically decrease the chances of an accident, you would, right?

IMHO,  this article could have just as easily been titled "Nine vehicles that still expect some level of compentancy in their drivers".

I'm all for safety but we are letting these devices substitue for driver competance when instead they should enhance it. 

In fact I could probably find a study that shows that all these safety devices casue drivers to take more risks because they are certain their vehicle will bail them out if they get in over their head. 

[SVT666]

You should have had more mastery of your car at the limits of adhesion.

Well obviously.

[MrH]

The kid is like 17 years old, give him a fucking break. Were you well versed in automotive physics at that age?

The kid can name every Chinese car ever made, but didn't understand that?  Come on.

And yes, I did know that at 17.

[Secret Chimp]

What do you need stability control for on a low-power front wheel drive car?

[sportyaccordy]

What do you need stability control for on a low-power front wheel drive car?

Hit a spot of oil on the road or something? Obstacle jumps out at you on the highway or at speed and you need to safely swerve? Shit happens

The kid can name every Chinese car ever made, but didn't understand that?  Come on.

And yes, I did know that at 17.

Someone get this man a cookie

There are full grown adults who have been driving for years who don't know that.

[rohan]

The kid is like 17 years old, give him a fucking break. Were you well versed in automotive physics at that age?

That's a horrible excuse for bad driving.  I agree it's probably not all his fault since we don't teach them nearly enough - we make police recruits and "retreds" and general re-training go on the skid-pad with the anti-locks turned off and they HAVE to be able to keep the car from a) locking up  b) going into a spinout  c) recover from an active spinout.  If they can't do it they don't pass.  There's gotta be a way to have the kids just learning go through something similar every year for their first 3 years so they get it engrained in their memory.

[rohan]

What do you need stability control for on a low-power front wheel drive car?

Because even low-power fwd cars can go 80 mph- and they're still driven by people with almost no training on icy roads.  Hell last time I went to Florida- FLORIDA- every morning there was a news report about some dumbass who'ld flipped his car over on the interstate or local highway on dry roads. 

[Laconian]

Because even low-power fwd cars can go 80 mph- and they're still driven by people with almost no training on icy roads.  Hell last time I went to Florida- FLORIDA- every morning there was a news report about some dumbass who'ld flipped his car over on the interstate or local highway on dry roads. 

No amount of electronic technowizardry can compensate for Floridians being Floridians.

[Cookie Monster]

On one hand, I feel that people should have much stricter driving requirements in order to become better drivers so they can save their own ass by not getting into stupid situations in the first place.

However, on the other hand, this technology is pretty cheap, and there's always going to be times where no amount of driver training will save you, like if a tire blows or if someone else is about to plow into you and you need to swerve. I doubt that many people could avoid sliding/spinning by swerving to avoid another  car, especially with the combination of fear and panic. Electronic systems will save your ass in those cases when you're shitting bricks and it's stupid to say you don't want any aids in your car.

Now, if it was permanently on and not able to be disabled ever, even for track use, then yes, it's a poorly designed system but the fact that your car has safety aids doesn't inherently make you a bad driver.

The Miata has no traction or stability control and in the rain it always tries to slide around corners, and at those times I'd like to have some electronic nannies, especially when I'm tired.

[MrH]

On one hand, I feel that people should have much stricter driving requirements in order to become better drivers so they can save their own ass by not getting into stupid situations in the first place.

However, on the other hand, this technology is pretty cheap, and there's always going to be times where no amount of driver training will save you, like if a tire blows or if someone else is about to plow into you and you need to swerve. I doubt that many people could avoid sliding/spinning by swerving to avoid another  car, especially with the combination of fear and panic. Electronic systems will save your ass in those cases when you're shitting bricks and it's stupid to say you don't want any aids in your car.

Now, if it was permanently on and not able to be disabled ever, even for track use, then yes, it's a poorly designed system but the fact that your car has safety aids doesn't inherently make you a bad driver.

The Miata has no traction or stability control and in the rain it always tries to slide around corners, and at those times I'd like to have some electronic nannies, especially when I'm tired.

  It tries to slide around?  I always keep DSC off, and I can only get it to slide if I push it in rain.

[sportyaccordy]

That's a horrible excuse for bad driving.  I agree it's probably not all his fault since we don't teach them nearly enough - we make police recruits and "retreds" and general re-training go on the skid-pad with the anti-locks turned off and they HAVE to be able to keep the car from a) locking up  b) going into a spinout  c) recover from an active spinout.  If they can't do it they don't pass.  There's gotta be a way to have the kids just learning go through something similar every year for their first 3 years so they get it engrained in their memory.

Hey I agree that American training for drivers is criminally inadequate. But it is what it is. If one has tried to turn while their brakes were locked up, or had a background in automotive physics, I don't see how that would be intuitive- esp to a 17 year old kid.

I still don't see the harm in these systems, even with better training. Especially if they can be disabled. I'm still at a loss as to why people drive on public streets with them off though. When I drive my parents' cars, which both have VSC IIRC, I don't turn the systems off. No need to. In my last two cars, I didn't have ESC or w/e, but the only times I recall breaking traction was the first time I stood on the brakes (no ABS). I really doubt these systems are so intrusive in daily driving that they need to be shut off to make driving enjoybale... and again most ppl who complain about these systems have no formal training or high threshold driving experience beyond the American standard. It's just an ego thing.,

[hotrodalex]

Sounds like someone needs new tires. Even my dad's Camaro doesn't slide around just going around a wet corner.

Personally, I don't care if a car has stability control or not. Of course this is coming from someone who has an old muscle car. I wouldn't mind stability control, traction control, or ABS, but I don't find them necessary. I've avoided quite a few accidents without them, and it wasn't because of driving ability. Being aware of your surroundings and avoiding bad situations in the first place is the best skill to have out on the road.

[Onslaught]

The Miata has no traction or stability control and in the rain it always tries to slide around corners, and at those times I'd like to have some electronic nannies, especially when I'm tired.

That's part of the fun! When it's going on you can have that" Oh fuck" moment. But after it's all over with it was a rush. And the looks of the other drivers faces around you can be priceless.

[MX793]

If you have to significantly change from your normal driving style for rain to keep from sliding through corners, you either have bad tires or are taking corners too aggressively in the dry.  

That said, I'm not vehemently opposed to ESC systems, especially if there's an off switch (since I'd like to shut it off at the AutoX or track).  Even very good drivers can be caught off guard (there are a lot of unpredictable situations on the road) and that extra safety net isn't a bad thing to have.  I do not believe it should be a crutch or replacement for actual driving training and skill, though.

[giant_mtb]

I sorta tried to do some sliding in the Audi last night on the rainy roads, but I think I was too scared to push it that far 'cause nothing happened.  Damn AWD.

[Onslaught]

If you have to significantly change from your normal driving style for rain to keep from sliding through corners, you either have bad tires or are taking corners too aggressively in the dry.  

Yes. Unless the corner had oil all over it from an accident that day you didn't know about. And it just started raining. I was going really damn slow and she still went around on me. Now I got it under control really fast and didn't hit a thing or even come close to the other cars. But shit can happen.

Sometimes it's fun however.

[sportyaccordy]

"Fun" in the "driving recklessly on public streets" kind is wholly deplorable. I'm not gonna lie and say I haven't done it myself, or that I never will, but I don't think such exercises are valid reasons to do away with ESC, or even make it defeatable on street cars.

[MX793]

I sorta tried to do some sliding in the Audi last night on the rainy roads, but I think I was too scared to push it that far 'cause nothing happened.  Damn AWD.

I intentionally kicked my tail end out through a corner on my way to work this morning.  There's one corner where it's very easy to do, especially if the roads are wet.  Even with the ESC on (I see no reason to shut if off for general day-to-day driving on public streets), it couldn't prevent me from sliding the tail (although I did notice the light in the dash flash on for a moment).

[Cookie Monster]

If you have to significantly change from your normal driving style for rain to keep from sliding through corners, you either have bad tires or are taking corners too aggressively in the dry. 

That said, I'm not vehemently opposed to ESC systems, especially if there's an off switch (since I'd like to shut it off at the AutoX or track).  Even very good drivers can be caught off guard (there are a lot of unpredictable situations on the road) and that extra safety net isn't a bad thing to have.  I do not believe it should be a crutch or replacement for actual driving training and skill, though.

Dude, it's a Miata, I'm always taking corners too fast.

In the dry it has a ton of grip though, and it's weird how in the wet it's completely unsettled. I do drive slow in the wet and don't take corners fast but if I even touch the throttle around corners and I'm driving over the weird paint on the intersections it'll try to slide.

[Cookie Monster]

That's part of the fun! When it's going on you can have that" Oh fuck" moment. But after it's all over with it was a rush. And the looks of the other drivers faces around you can be priceless.

Haha, I once hit the gas really hard in the rain going in a straight line and the back started wagging around everywhere and all the other drivers just slowed down and stayed behind me a good distance for the next few miles.

[MX793]

Yes. Unless the corner had oil all over it from an accident that day you didn't know about. And it just started raining. I was going really damn slow and she still went around on me. Now I got it under control really fast and didn't hit a thing or even come close to the other cars. But shit can happen.

Sometimes it's fun however.

That would fall into the "unexpected sh!t happens" category.  I doubt even ESC would have saved you in that case.  I was similarly caught by a patch of ice on an off-ramp several years ago.  I wasn't really going any faster than the car in front of me, but I happened to touch the gas when the back tires were on an icy patch and the tail end started to come around.  Then I caught dry pavement while sideways and trying to correct and ended up spinning completely out the opposite direction from how I started to slide.

[MX793]

Dude, it's a Miata, I'm always taking corners too fast.

In the dry it has a ton of grip though, and it's weird how in the wet it's completely unsettled. I do drive slow in the wet and don't take corners fast but if I even touch the throttle around corners and I'm driving over the weird paint on the intersections it'll try to slide.

Your tires aren't that wide and the car doesn't have that much power (does it even have a limited slip?).  You shouldn't have any issues keeping the tail in line in the rain.  If you can't even "touch" the gas without unintentionally sliding, you're either in too low a gear or your idea of "touching" the gas is too aggressive, or some combination.

[Cookie Monster]

Your tires aren't that wide and the car doesn't have that much power (does it even have a limited slip?).  You shouldn't have any issues keeping the tail in line in the rain.  If you can't even "touch" the gas without unintentionally sliding, you're either in too low a gear or your idea of "touching" the gas is too aggressive, or some combination.

I think my problem is that I don't know how to drive.