Modern interpretation of the E-Type.

[Rupert]

I do like how the exhaust sticks up though.

That's not the exhaust.

[ChrisV]

There is a big difference between having a valid professional opinion on a subject and offering an opinion on whether one likes a piece of automotive design, which essentially is a piece of art.  And one doesn't need to be educated in automotive design in order to offer a valid opinion on whether one likes like a particular design.

Until one starts arguing the technical merits of it. Different than simple saying "I like this or "I don't like that."

I don't give a crap if he likes it or not. I don't give a crap what his or anyone's favorites are. It's good to have favorties, and hopefully they are all different favorites. But once you start discussing something like this in a technical manner, and challenging or commenting on the technical merits, then the discussion becomes about training and experience, as well as kowledge of context.

If it was all ONLY subjective, you could not teach it OR learn it.

There's a lot of validity in the statement "I don't know art, but I know what I like".  You may disagree with the reason someone likes or dislikes something but that dioesn't invalidate their liking or not liking it.    

Ah, but if the reasons are misinformed (i.e "I don't like this" is unarguable. But "I don't like this because of x and y fact" and x and y facts are learned items that are mistaken is quite examinable), then it stands to reason that learrning the real facts might change the opinion. It may not, but at least you have real facts instead of mistaken notions. Those facts, reasoning, and statements are what's being challenged.

We learn to like things that we didn't before all the time, from food to art, to automotive designs (and of all of them, cars are the least natural and most "learned" responses) as we learn new things. Sometimes it's simply from trying them again after a period of time, and sometimes it's through learning and education.

This is especially true of industrial design and architecture. Since these aren't natural things, VERY often people's likes and dislikes change over time as they learn about them and understand them better.

It's a lot like car colors.

No, it's not. Color is natural by itself. The responses MAY be partially "learned" by associating a particular color with a particular event in childhood, but they are also intrinsic in that they may stimulate different brain chemicals (red causing anger, blue causing calming) naturally and you can't change that. They are also seen differntly by differnt peopel due to the makeup of the rods and cones in your eye, so that even if youre not colorblind, your rods and cones may see a shade of blue slightly differtly than another sees it, and where the shade THEY see ends up being their favorite, YOU see a slightly different shade that isn't as pleasant to you. Naturally.

Modern mechanical forms don't have that natural organic makeup and species history.

[Payman]

That's not the exhaust.

True. I prefer to think of it as a piston intake port.

[2o6]

Why.....why does this thread keep coming back!



Besides, I'm an art student anyways, going into Graphic Design, a field of study IIRC you make your living in! So really, unless you have an Industrial Design degree, by your logic, NEITHER of us are qualified to say anything!

[sportyaccordy]

What formal training or published editorials does ChrisV have on automotive design

[Submariner]

What formal training or published editorials does ChrisV have on automotive design

None that I am aware of, but to be fair, I think he is more knowledgeable in the area of automotive design than anyone here...just saying...

[MrH]

None that I am aware of, but to be fair, I think he is more knowledgeable in the area of automotive design than anyone here...just saying...

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that.

I might say things like, "that door looks funky", but that's about as far as my design critiquing goes .

[Submariner]

Why.....why does this thread keep coming back!

It's like Herpes...the gift that keeps on giving!

[sportyaccordy]

If I think a car is ugly, ChrisV berating me and discrediting my opinion won't change my mind. Being knowledgeable doesn't give one carte blanche to be an asshole, nor does it mean anyone has to listen to him.

[MX793]

If I think a car is ugly, ChrisV berating me and discrediting my opinion won't change my mind. Being knowledgeable doesn't give one carte blanche to be an asshole, nor does it mean anyone has to listen to him.

YOUR OPINION IS WRONG

[Rupert]

I don't think you guys are reading what ChrisV is writing. He's saying that an opinion, however uninformed, can't be wrong, but the information that leads to that opinion can be either missing or wrong. Therefore, with more or better information, it is reasonable to suggest that an opinion can be changed. He's berating people who are actually presenting misinformation to the board (at least as he sees it), which can lead to ill-informed opinions.

Ill-informed opinions, by the way, are extremely destructive to society as a whole, though not in this particular area.

[sportyaccordy]

I don't see what was wrongly presented by 2o6. He didn't cite anything or w/e, just said his piece and kept it moving.

[GoCougs]

LOL - this whole "qualified opinion" framework is ridiculous on so many levels it's laughable. It's nothing but pseudo high-brow bully tactics. It's childish, disingenuous and cowardly. LOL - "extremely destructive to society." For Christ's sake people, not everyone thinks the same. Deal with it. Buck up and get yer validation elsewhere.

TL;DR - ChrisV is being an idiot, as is anyone who agrees with him.

[Rupert]

Hey, your opinion can be whatever, but without enough good information, you're an idiot. I don't even see how that's controversial, at least when applied to important matters (i.e. not this thread).

I'm not even saying that there is only one possible conclusion to be reached.

[sportyaccordy]

Hey, your opinion can be whatever, but without enough good information, you're an idiot. I don't even see how that's controversial, at least when applied to important matters (i.e. not this thread).

Oh yea, I agree with this wholeheartedly, especially the bolded. If you want to talk politics and have no clue what's going on its prob best to just keep quiet for everyone's sake. But you don't need a long storied resume in theater & film to see a movie and say you don't like it. Like Cougs said ChrisV is just looking to bully people into agreeing with him. He's had nothing to say that makes the case that 2o6 was wrong in not liking this car,  or would have any more valid of an opinion in agreeing. The whole thing is silly and surprising coming from someone supposed to be mature. I can only imagine what kind of meaningless tantrums ChrisV has IRL

Dude's reputation is not limited to here either, someone's got some ridiculous quote from him as a sig on Bimmerforums.

[GoCougs]

Hey, your opinion can be whatever, but without enough good information, you're an idiot. I don't even see how that's controversial, at least when applied to important matters (i.e. not this thread).

I'm not even saying that there is only one possible conclusion to be reached.

Yeah, we get the implication - if everyone had "enough good information" they'd think just like you...

[SVT666]

I don't see how knowing the reasons why a car looks the way it does would ever change anyone's opinion about whether they think the car looks good or not.  I don't like cars from the 50s and I don't like hot rods, and I don't really give a rat's ass how much skill or money or time went into them, because it won't make me like them.

[mzziaz]

This car is being built, btw, according to a No. automotive news source.

[Onslaught]

I don't see how knowing the reasons why a car looks the way it does would ever change anyone's opinion about whether they think the car looks good or not.  I don't like cars from the 50s and I don't like hot rods, and I don't really give a rat's ass how much skill or money or time went into them, because it won't make me like them.

I agree. I'm sure the Bugatti Veyron looks the way it does for a reason. It's still ugly as hell.

[Rupert]

I don't see how knowing the reasons why a car looks the way it does would ever change anyone's opinion about whether they think the car looks good or not.  I don't like cars from the 50s and I don't like hot rods, and I don't really give a rat's ass how much skill or money or time went into them, because it won't make me like them.

Well, 2o6 was kind of making the argument on a good/bad, creative/uncreative basis, not just his opinion. I don't think ChrisV was way off-base, just too overbearing.

[Rupert]

Yeah, we get the implication - if everyone had "enough good information" they'd think just like you...

Um, no.

There are things where that is true, sure, but there are plenty of disagreements that boil down to fundamental philosophical differences, which stem from, for example, the way someone was raised.

[Tave]

Yeah, we get the implication

Yes, we certainly do.

Rupert = Thought Police

GoCougs = Defender of Freedom

[Rupert]

I'm watching you!

[sportyaccordy]

I don't see how knowing the reasons why a car looks the way it does would ever change anyone's opinion about whether they think the car looks good or not.  I don't like cars from the 50s and I don't like hot rods, and I don't really give a rat's ass how much skill or money or time went into them, because it won't make me like them.

Well then you don't know shit. And I say that in the nicest way possible.

[mzziaz]

Well then you don't know shit. And I say that in the nicest way possible.

Don't steal ChrisV's quotes!

[omicron]

This car is being built, btw, according to a No. automotive news source.

I like this very much. Supercharged Jaguar V8, please, although an Aston V12 might be even tastier.

[mzziaz]

I like this very much. Supercharged Jaguar V8, please, although an Aston V12 might be even tastier.

XKR's will be donors, iirc.

[GoCougs]

I'm watching you!

You need to do it better I think. I still have my thoughts.

[Rupert]

That's what you think.

[omicron]

XKR's will be donors, iirc.

Excellent.