Ford Explorer Ecoboost = SUV fail

[Catman]

The Fusion, Taurus, Edge and Explorer are all selling well. Not all of those products are especially strong -- the Taurus in particular -- but they're definitely selling.

Perhaps has a good handle on what the average person wants?

[2o6]

One of the chief complaints in this write-up was poor acceleration. A small diesel would only make it worse. If an engine is slower 0 - 60 it'll be slower in day-to-day driving too; and diesel throttle lag will add perception to that.

Maybe if you're talking about a 1.5L Diesel with the gearing for a petrol model...

[Morris Minor]

We're going to have to get used to weak vehicles - Obama's fuel economy standards.

[ifcar]

The answer to my rhetorical question is Ford should have cut down on lineup redundancy to bolster existing product; Mustang, Fusion, Ranger, Focus all languished whilst Ford spent time and money on redundancy such as the Edge (and Flex).

Flex wasn't redundant at the time, and there was no reason to discontinue it just because an effective replacement was introduced. It's still selling at a high price point, if at low volumes.

And there are clear size differences between the five-passenger Edge and seven-passenger Explorer -- it's essentially the difference between the Grand Cherokee and Durango.

[ifcar]

Perhaps has a good handle on what the average person wants?

Just because something is popular doesn't make it good. Many people don't shop around to find the best product.

[GoCougs]

Flex wasn't redundant at the time, and there was no reason to discontinue it just because an effective replacement was introduced. It's still selling at a high price point, if at low volumes.

And there are clear size differences between the five-passenger Edge and seven-passenger Explorer -- it's essentially the difference between the Grand Cherokee and Durango.

Did GM make the right choice in killing off Olds and Pontiac?

[Galaxy]

One of the chief complaints in this write-up was poor acceleration. A small diesel would only make it worse. If an engine is slower 0 - 60 it'll be slower in day-to-day driving too; and diesel throttle lag will add perception to that.

The Ecoboost also has a turbo, so in terms of throttle lag it will also not be stellar. There are many people who in day to day driving like to stomp on the gas every now and then, however very few rev out the engine in daily driving. An engine that pulls out of the rev basement has an advantage in this regard over engines that make power via high revs.

In the end it is a matter of taste. Some think the RX-8 Renesis is a gutless engine, some love the; Rev baby! Rev baby! aspect of it.

[Tave]

The answer to my rhetorical question is Ford should have cut down on lineup redundancy to bolster existing product; Mustang, Fusion, Ranger, Focus all languished whilst Ford spent time and money on redundancy such as the Edge (and Flex).

Chevy spent time and money developing the Equinox and Traverse while the Impala, Suburban, Colorado, and Corvette just sat there. It remains to be seen whether these crossovers are going to be a passing fad or whether they will form part of a car company's core lineup. Certainly, they are much more important to Ford and GM than the Ranger or Colorado.

Did GM make the right choice in killing off Olds and Pontiac?

That's a broken analogy, but in any event, Ford trimmed fat by the name of Mercury and Volvo.

[GoCougs]

Chevy spent time and money developing the Equinox and Traverse while the Impala, Suburban, Colorado, and Corvette just sat there. It remains to be seen whether these crossovers are going to be a passing fad or whether they will form part of a car company's core lineup. Certainly, they are much more important to Ford and GM than the Ranger or Colorado.

Not true on the Suburban; it was all new for 2007 and thus now only in its fifth model year,and slated to be replaced in MY2013. The Corvette has always been a small, niche seller. Unlike the Ranger once upon a time, the Colorado (nor the S-10) never held the market sales crown.

Chevy (GM) also spent time developing (since Mulally joined Ford) the Volt, Cruze, Camaro, new Malibu, new CTS, new SRX, revived the whole of Buick, which is a lot more effort than Ford put into its lineup, with more success.

That's a broken analogy, but in any event, Ford trimmed fat by the name of Mercury and Volvo.

Not at all; GM chose to axe hundreds of thousands of sales of redundant product to concentrate on more important things. Ford would have been far better served taking Edge and Flex development $$$ and spending it on replacing the Ranger, Mustang, Fusion, and Focus.

[ifcar]

Did GM make the right choice in killing off Olds and Pontiac?

Yes, because it would have required a substantial investment to successfully differentiate them from the surviving brands. This question will undoubtedly come up once the Flex is due for a redesign, but at the moment it's not consuming any development dollars and there's no reason to eliminate it.

As it was conceived, the Flex wasn't a redundant product but was to be Ford's mainstream large crossover. It flopped, so in response Ford made a different maintream large crossover without killing off the fairly new Flex. Both of those are substantially larger than the Edge, so it has a comfortable place in the lineup as well.

Not true on the Suburban; it was all new for 2007 and thus now only in its fifth model year,and slated to be replaced in MY2013.

Last I heard GM was only talking about a cosmetic update to the next-gen Suburban, but of course that message could change 15 times before next year.

[Atomic]

Yes, because it would have required a substantial investment to successfully differentiate them from the surviving brands. This question will undoubtedly come up once the Flex is due for a redesign, but at the moment it's not consuming any development dollars and there's no reason to eliminate it.

As it was conceived, the Flex wasn't a redundant product but was to be Ford's mainstream large crossover. It flopped, so in response Ford made a different mainstream large crossover without killing off the fairly new Flex. Both of those are substantially larger than the Edge, so it has a comfortable place in the lineup as well.

Last I heard GM was only talking about a cosmetic update to the next-gen Suburban, but of course that message could change 15 times before next year.

from what i have read and heard out of detroit third hand, cadillac was going to replace the escalade with a version of the popular chevrolet traverse, buick enclave and GMC acadia. however, the latest news is that they will proceed with an ultra luxury variant of this trio AND more than likely redesign the large escalade, as we know it, minus the avalanche from chevy as well as caddy's version of the glorified pick-up.

over at ford-lincoln, the expedition was to continue, but the navigator was planned to move to a new platform with two (2) scenarios:

- no MKT replacement, rather the "next" navigator to be based on a far less controversial redesign of the MKT

OR

- a ford explorer based vehicle for lincoln to replace the navigator wearing the navigator's name

it is now, nearly confirmed that there will be (1) an explorer based lincoln; (2) the continuation of the MKT (with little to no changes to curtail costs) to either retain its name or be renamed "town car" aimed at fleets for livery businesses (GOOD LUCK!); (3) and a restyled expedition based navigator without the extended length version (or EL). also speculated: with an explorer based lincoln, the MKX will liklely be disconinuted. no news on whether or not ford will keep the flex and/or edge, but iffy has a great point -- impressive sales figures.

PIMARY SOURCE: Automotive News

[MX793]

Not true on the Suburban; it was all new for 2007 and thus now only in its fifth model year,and slated to be replaced in MY2013. The Corvette has always been a small, niche seller. Unlike the Ranger once upon a time, the Colorado (nor the S-10) never held the market sales crown.

Chevy (GM) also spent time developing (since Mulally joined Ford) the Volt, Cruze, Camaro, new Malibu, new CTS, new SRX, revived the whole of Buick, which is a lot more effort than Ford put into its lineup, with more success.

Not at all; GM chose to axe hundreds of thousands of sales of redundant product to concentrate on more important things. Ford would have been far better served taking Edge and Flex development $$$ and spending it on replacing the Ranger, Mustang, Fusion, and Focus.

Just because it isn't showing up in their North American line-up doesn't mean Ford hasn't been putting money into developing new vehicles.  They are a global company, after all.  Ford has put money in a new Ranger, but it's not sold in the US market (where they have decided to bow out of the small/midsize pickup segment altogether).  They also developed a brand new Focus and the new Fiesta, both sold worldwide and both belonging to segments that, on a global scale, are the most competitive and important.  Far more important to the company than a niche pony car or a large/midsize sedans that sell poorly outside of North America, if sold at all.  If Ford it to be criticized for anything, it's that they've neglected North America in the interest of maintaining competitiveness in the rest of the world (including establishing themselves in emerging markets like China and India).

The Volt is a nice demonstration of technology, but will not sell in sufficient numbers to be meaningful.  I'll be surprised if GM makes any real money from the car.  It's not even sold in all 50 states yet.

I fail to see any redundancy with the Edge.  It's a midsize, 5-seat crossover.  Ford has no other vehicle in that segment.  The closest is the Escape, which is smaller and soon-to-be discontinued.

And since Mulally took the helm, Ford has almost completely rebuilt Lincoln.  MKZ, MKS, MKT and MKS all came out since Mulally (although given product cycle time, all of them were in the chute before Mulally took the job).  Buick's "reinvention" consists of only the new Regal (which is purely a badge-job from Opel) and all new LaCrosse.

[Atomic]

Just because it isn't showing up in their North American line-up doesn't mean Ford hasn't been putting money into developing new vehicles.  They are a global company, after all.  Ford has put money in a new Ranger, but it's not sold in the US market (where they have decided to bow out of the small/midsize pickup segment altogether).  They also developed a brand new Focus and the new Fiesta, both sold worldwide and both belonging to segments that, on a global scale, are the most competitive and important.  Far more important to the company than a niche pony car or a large/midsize sedans that sell poorly outside of North America, if sold at all.  If Ford it to be criticized for anything, it's that they've neglected North America in the interest of maintaining competitiveness in the rest of the world (including establishing themselves in emerging markets like China and India).

The Volt is a nice demonstration of technology, but will not sell in sufficient numbers to be meaningful.  I'll be surprised if GM makes any real money from the car.  It's not even sold in all 50 states yet.

I fail to see any redundancy with the Edge.  It's a midsize, 5-seat crossover.  Ford has no other vehicle in that segment.  The closest is the Escape, which is smaller and soon-to-be discontinued.

And since Mulally took the helm, Ford has almost completely rebuilt Lincoln.  MKZ, MKS, MKT and MKS all came out since Mulally (although given product cycle time, all of them were in the chute before Mulally took the job).  Buick's "reinvention" consists of only the new Regal (which is purely a badge-job from Opel) and all new LaCrosse.

the lacrosse is surprisingly nice! a good deal, especially w/ AWD and panorama roof options. i would go this route opposed to a DTS (no longer in production, no AWD, no "large" sunroof) or lincoln MKS (AWD, panoramic roof options) or smaller MKZ (AWD, yes; "large" sunroof, no). have not driven a new regal yet, but hope to when the GS arrives soon.

[ifcar]

And since Mulally took the helm, Ford has almost completely rebuilt Lincoln.  MKZ, MKS, MKT and MKS all came out since Mulally (although given product cycle time, all of them were in the chute before Mulally took the job).  Buick's "reinvention" consists of only the new Regal (which is purely a badge-job from Opel) and all new LaCrosse.

That's not really something to be proud of. The MKS is a lousy product, the MKT a complete sales flop. The MKZ and MKX predate him; he was only in charge during their mid-life updates. And none of those has represented a major change for Lincoln, which is to say that it hasn't moved up in the market because of them. Cadillac has been transformed this decade; Lincoln, not so much.

Buick, I would say, is getting there -- more because of the Enclave than anything else. It brought in fairly large numbers of non-traditional Buick customers willing to pay a fortune for a Buick. Whether its turnaround has already hit its high-water mark is too early to say, as the LaCrosse caters (successfully) to core customers and the Regal was something of a cheap experiment whose results aren't yet in.

[MX793]

That's not really something to be proud of. The MKS is a lousy product, the MKT a complete sales flop. The MKZ and MKX predate him; he was only in charge during their mid-life updates. And none of those has represented a major change for Lincoln, which is to say that it hasn't moved up in the market because of them. Cadillac has been transformed this decade; Lincoln, not so much.

Buick, I would say, is getting there -- more because of the Enclave than anything else. It brought in fairly large numbers of non-traditional Buick customers willing to pay a fortune for a Buick. Whether its turnaround has already hit its high-water mark is too early to say, as the LaCrosse caters (successfully) to core customers and the Regal was something of a cheap experiment whose results aren't yet in.

I didn't say they did a good job with Lincoln, only that they had invested in a new lineup.  Invested at least as much as GM has in Buick in the same time frame.  And MKX technically went on sale after Mulally took charge, but was one of those products that was so far along in the chute that Mulally can take neither credit nor blame.

[GoCougs]

Yes, because it would have required a substantial investment to successfully differentiate them from the surviving brands. This question will undoubtedly come up once the Flex is due for a redesign, but at the moment it's not consuming any development dollars and there's no reason to eliminate it.

Sure it consumes development (and other) dollars. ALL existing product does in pretty much an manufacturer extant.

As it was conceived, the Flex wasn't a redundant product but was to be Ford's mainstream large crossover. It flopped, so in response Ford made a different maintream large crossover without killing off the fairly new Flex. Both of those are substantially larger than the Edge, so it has a comfortable place in the lineup as well.

Still lots of redundancy.

Last I heard GM was only talking about a cosmetic update to the next-gen Suburban, but of course that message could change 15 times before next year.

As history has shown the Suburban follows the truck platform, of which an all-new model is due MY2013, meaning most of the vehicle design and engineering is done and the company is mostly in the midst of supplier, regulatory and tooling endeavors.

[ifcar]

Sure it consumes development (and other) dollars. ALL existing product does in pretty much an manufacturer extant.

Doesn't development spending require some sort of development? Not much development cost in developing a developed product.

Still lots of redundancy.

Why don't you suggest to Ford that it eliminate the Edge and its 100k+ annual sales. I'm sure that will be taken as a brilliant concept.

As history has shown the Suburban follows the truck platform, of which an all-new model is due MY2013, meaning most of the vehicle design and engineering is done and the company is mostly in the midst of supplier, regulatory and tooling endeavors.

Gas prices were cheap all the previous time the Suburban was redesigned too, which is I'm sure why it's being questioned at this point.

[GoCougs]

Just because it isn't showing up in their North American line-up doesn't mean Ford hasn't been putting money into developing new vehicles.  They are a global company, after all.  Ford has put money in a new Ranger, but it's not sold in the US market (where they have decided to bow out of the small/midsize pickup segment altogether).  They also developed a brand new Focus and the new Fiesta, both sold worldwide and both belonging to segments that, on a global scale, are the most competitive and important.  Far more important to the company than a niche pony car or a large/midsize sedans that sell poorly outside of North America, if sold at all.  If Ford it to be criticized for anything, it's that they've neglected North America in the interest of maintaining competitiveness in the rest of the world (including establishing themselves in emerging markets like China and India).

The focus languished for 10 years; should've been replaced five years ago. Ford didn't do Any Great Thing by waiting five years to let the European arm take on responsibility. It was a practical matter via limited resources and $$$.

The Volt is a nice demonstration of technology, but will not sell in sufficient numbers to be meaningful.  I'll be surprised if GM makes any real money from the car.  It's not even sold in all 50 states yet.

Probably won't be a sales success but my point was it's a materially market-important design and brand management endeavor the likes of which Ford hasn't done.

I fail to see any redundancy with the Edge.  It's a midsize, 5-seat crossover.  Ford has no other vehicle in that segment.  The closest is the Escape, which is smaller and soon-to-be discontinued.

Ford simply has too many SUV thingies. Of the Explorer, Edge, and Flex, two have to go.

And since Mulally took the helm, Ford has almost completely rebuilt Lincoln.  MKZ, MKS, MKT and MKS all came out since Mulally (although given product cycle time, all of them were in the chute before Mulally took the job).  Buick's "reinvention" consists of only the new Regal (which is purely a badge-job from Opel) and all new LaCrosse.

Lincoln has been "completely rebuilt" with American badge jobs; and sales have been dismal. Buick's lone badge job was at least from Europe; plus the Enclave has been a moderate success. Buick was going the road of Pontiac and Olds but GM pulled it out.

[2o6]

Killing off the Edge makes no sense.

[GoCougs]

Doesn't development spending require some sort of development? Not much development cost in developing a developed product.

There is plenty of development costs in a "developed product." Product updates, regulatory changes, recalls, etc., to an existing product still consume development $$$.

Why don't you suggest to Ford that it eliminate the Edge and its 100k+ annual sales. I'm sure that will be taken as a brilliant concept.

Again, was it brilliant of GM to eliminate the sales of entire divisions?

Of the Flex, Edge and Explorer, two have to go.

Gas prices were cheap all the previous time the Suburban was redesigned too, which is I'm sure why it's being questioned at this point.

It would likely cost GM more to NOT move the GMT-900 Suburban to the new truck platform. Lost will be the of economies of scale in manufacturing - from supplier parts to manufacturing sub assemblies to factory space.

[ifcar]

You know, I think Ford has too many car thingies. I mean, really -- Fiesta, Focus, Mustang, Fusion, Taurus? One of them just has to go.  Just pick one at random out of the middle somewhere. Maybe two.

[Laconian]

*Whoosh*! Ifcar's sarcasm must be too subtle for you.

EDIT: nice deletion there, Cougs.

[GoCougs]

You know, I think Ford has too many car thingies. I mean, really -- Fiesta, Focus, Mustang, Fusion, Taurus? One of them just has to go.  Just pick one at random out of the middle somewhere. Maybe two.

Wow, so you implicitly agree that that was a monsterly good post? But really, it was pretty good.

Fiesta could definitely go. It won't sell nearly as well as the Focus or Fusion. Betcha overall Ford would profit more in the long run if it put Fiesta $$$ into keeping the other four models on five year redesign cycles.

[2o6]

Wow, so you implicitly agree that that was a monsterly good post? But really, it was pretty good.

Fiesta could definitely go. It won't sell nearly as well as the Focus or Fusion. Betcha overall Ford would profit more in the long run if it put Fiesta $$$ into keeping the other four models on five year redesign cycles.

Deliberately ignoring a segment (even if small) is a terrible business decision.

[MX793]

Wow, so you implicitly agree that that was a monsterly good post? But really, it was pretty good.

Fiesta could definitely go. It won't sell nearly as well as the Focus or Fusion. Betcha overall Ford would profit more in the long run if it put Fiesta $$$ into keeping the other four models on five year redesign cycles.

Except that the Fiesta is not a North American market only car.  It's a bona fide world car (and sells in very large numbers globally).  The development money for a car in that segment had to be spent to maintain competitiveness in world markets, they may as well sell it as many places as they can.  Plus, with the Focus moving up in price, it gives Ford something to offer at a lower price point.  I see quite a few of them out on the road, I suspect they are selling reasonably well.  The money saved by not selling it in North America would not be sufficient to move four other models onto 5-years development cycles.  Although I would point out that the Focus has been on a ~5-6 year development cycle all along.  We didn't see it in America because Ford opted not to give us the C1-based generation, but the car is in its third generation now and has only been around for 13 model years.  But then, you seem to have your blinders on to the fact that Ford (and GM) are global companies and that the US auto market, while significant, is not the only car market in the world.

[Colonel Cadillac]

I'm a lot more interested in the Explorer with the EcoBoost V6. If it ever comes out, it would be a sweet family cruiser

[68_427]

I'm a lot more interested in the Explorer with the EcoBoost V6. If it ever comes out, it would be a sweet family cruiser

Flex Ecoboost would be and is a better cruiser.  0-60 in 6.1s.

[2o6]

Except that the Fiesta is not a North American market only car.  It's a bona fide world car (and sells in very large numbers globally).  The development money for a car in that segment had to be spent to maintain competitiveness in world markets, they may as well sell it as many places as they can.  Plus, with the Focus moving up in price, it gives Ford something to offer at a lower price point.  I see quite a few of them out on the road, I suspect they are selling reasonably well.  The money saved by not selling it in North America would not be sufficient to move four other models onto 5-years development cycles.  Although I would point out that the Focus has been on a ~5-6 year development cycle all along.  We didn't see it in America because Ford opted not to give us the C1-based generation, but the car is in its third generation now and has only been around for 13 model years.  But then, you seem to have your blinders on to the fact that Ford (and GM) are global companies and that the US auto market, while significant, is not the only car market in the world.

(Insert Cougs speech of how small cars are immoral)

[ifcar]

(Insert Cougs speech of how small cars are immoral)

Obama forces those 5k+ customers to buy Fiestas every month.

[sparkplug]

Motortrend must have needed a whipping boy or scapegoat. I don't buy their magazine because of biased reviews.