The next 3.....

[sportyaccordy]

Sporty, you're really becoming a joke with your drivels 

I guess I will be joining you and Wimmer's club

[Raza]

Somehow I doubt this

And if it's true it doesn't bode well for your market. I.e. you guys will buy total turds as long as they have the right emblem

Its silly

Re: the new 3, we will see.

Brand loyalty goes a long way, even here.  When I bought my Jetta, I didn't really bother much with anything from Nissan, Toyota, Saab, or Volvo (BMW, MB, et al were out of my price range) because I went to the brands that I knew would have something that I would enjoy driving (Volkswagen and Honda). 

Just as distrust of a manufacturer goes a long way as well.  It's very unlikely that I'll ever have a Mercedes again because of how poorly my family's cars performed after what should have been a short amount of time for a Mercedes. 

[cawimmer430]

And if it's true it doesn't bode well for your market. I.e. you guys will buy total turds as long as they have the right emblem

Turds? Our cars are reliable enough. What's the difference between 0.8 and 1.8 shop visits per year? NONE. There's hardly a difference there. All modern cars are all very reliable and well-made. So what if your cup holder breaks? Quit whining. It's a non-essential part of driving. 


Reliability is important but it's not all there is to a car and many people also want to drive something fun and stylish and are willing to put up with a few hiccups along the way. Citroen, Peugeot, Renault, Seat, Skoda, Volkswagen, Fiat, Alfa Romeo etc. might not have that 100% bulletproof overrated Toyota reliability, but they're reliable enough and they offer stylish and fun cars. Now, let's see: Toyota and Hyundai in Europe for example. Fun cars? None. Stylish cars? Are you kidding me? NONE. Mazda, Nissan, Honda have some halo cars (RX-8/MPS , 370Z/GT-R and Civic Type-R), but then again those cars well in such small numbers here it's laughable. A Peugeot 308cc or RCZ or a Seat Ibiza Bocanegra on the other hand are popular strong sellers and they're stylish, fun and reliable.

I'm in the market for a new used car and I am eying the Citroen C5 Break and Skoda Superb Combi in diesel trim because I need something more spacious and economical than my small BMW 1er. Toyota Avensis? Not even on my list. Boring to drive, boring design, crap diesel engines and once again, boring design. So what if it is more reliable overall than a Citroen C5 or Skoda Superb? I value style and fun more than reliability, which I know is GOOD on the C5/Superb. I don't need a boring Toyota Avensis, which by the way aren't that great. Pick up a used car review here and look up the Avensis - they're not as bulletproof as people think they are. Toyota is OVERRATED. Big time.

[Raza]

Why not a Skoda Octavia vRS?  They came in a hatch and a wagon.  Basically a GLI/GTI for less money.  Great fun and 37+ imperial MPG.  



Ooh, or how about a Vectra VXR estate?

[Byteme]

Turds? Our cars are reliable enough. What's the difference between 0.8 and 1.8 shop visits per year? NONE.

For a Mercedes it's something like a couple of $grand if the repairs are coming out of the owner's pocket.   

[Vinsanity]

What's the difference between 0.8 and 1.8 shop visits per year? NONE. There's hardly a difference there.

Dude. It's a 125% increase.

For a Mercedes it's something like a couple of $grand if the repairs are coming out of the owner's pocket.   

Exactly. That one extra shop visit could cost an entire paycheck for all anyone knows.

[CALL_911]

Hah, every time reliability is brought up, Wimsy rabidly goes on a rant against Toyota. Methinks someone's just pissed that Lexus stole MB's lunch.

[sportyaccordy]

I never said any of the cars were turds, just that if MB put out a turd you would seriously consider it. I mean an actual turd like a hot smelly stool.

And the idea that Americans only buy cars based on reliability is asinine. Damn near half the board drives German cars and European cars have always been popular here. But the reality is reliability DOES matter; if it didn't Lexus would not have been the success story it is.

Reality is most folks, Germans too I bet, just want a car that will get them from point A to point B. Last week I was in FL driving my mother in law's Corolla. It was a little underpowered but other than that it was fine for getting me where I needed to go. For most of the driving population that is all a car has to do. I don't think I will ever buy a luxury car. Maybe a sports car but def not a luxury car. Just seems unnecessary. But for some time various European manufacturers were unable to make cars that could do that in the US which is why they got such a bad rep. It's very simple

[cawimmer430]

Why not a Skoda Octavia vRS?  They came in a hatch and a wagon.  Basically a GLI/GTI for less money.  Great fun and 37+ imperial MPG. 

Ooh, or how about a Vectra VXR estate?

Nice cars, but I am not looking for performance. I'm happy with the performance of the 118i and the benefits of a TDI Superb Combi are comfort, interior space, larger trunk and long range and good fuel economy (things the 118i FAILS at).

No Opels. I don't like any modern Opels except the Insignia and it's still not on my list. I think the Citroen C5 Break and Skoda Superb Combi diesel are the best choices that speak to me. Comfortable, stylish, spacious and good quality.

[cawimmer430]

Dude. It's a 125% increase.

Holy shit! The world will end in 2012! 

Exactly. That one extra shop visit could cost an entire paycheck for all anyone knows.

Why are "poor people" even considering a Benz if they can't even pay for a fill-up or spare parts? Seems to me that people that are living beyond their means are the first to bitch about prices and costs. Jesus, they should drive a Toyota Corolla and shut up.

[cawimmer430]

I never said any of the cars were turds, just that if MB put out a turd you would seriously consider it. I mean an actual turd like a hot smelly stool.

MB has put out turds before:

1st generation M-Class and 1st generation V-Class/Vito come to mind as the worst offenders.

And none of them appeals to me. I would willingly stay away from those cars because of massive rust and quality issues.

And the idea that Americans only buy cars based on reliability is asinine. Damn near half the board drives German cars and European cars have always been popular here. But the reality is reliability DOES matter; if it didn't Lexus would not have been the success story it is.

Those that care about reliability should drive a reliable car from a brand with such a reputation then. To bad that none of those brands offers something stylish (IMO).

I place emphasis on design, a bit of fun and other factors that "reliable brands" like Toyota or Hyundai cannot give me here. They don't offer a single product here which I personally find appealing. Nothing. I'd rather shop at Fiat, Renault, Citroen etc. because I can live with a few issues if they pop up because the trade-off is a nice stylish fun car etc.

Reality is most folks, Germans too I bet, just want a car that will get them from point A to point B. Last week I was in FL driving my mother in law's Corolla. It was a little underpowered but other than that it was fine for getting me where I needed to go. For most of the driving population that is all a car has to do. I don't think I will ever buy a luxury car. Maybe a sports car but def not a luxury car. Just seems unnecessary. But for some time various European manufacturers were unable to make cars that could do that in the US which is why they got such a bad rep. It's very simple

Well yeah, most people here aren't car enthusiasts and simply want something cheap and efficient to get them from A to B. At the same time there are people in that same crowd who have a desire for style, fun, more power etc. and still can't be considered "car enthusiasts" like us.

[sportyaccordy]

Why are "poor people" even considering a Benz if they can't even pay for a fill-up or spare parts? Seems to me that people that are living beyond their means are the first to bitch about prices and costs. Jesus, they should drive a Toyota Corolla and shut up.

You don't think "rich" people take a car's operating costs into consideration?

[Vinsanity]

Holy shit! The world will end in 2012! 


Why are "poor people" even considering a Benz if they can't even pay for a fill-up or spare parts? Seems to me that people that are living beyond their means are the first to bitch about prices and costs. Jesus, they should drive a Toyota Corolla and shut up.

Rich people don't end up that way from blowing thousands of $ on repair costs. Even if the repair bill was "only" $1,000, that's still money being flushed down the toilet instead of being invested in something that produces a return.

[cawimmer430]

You don't think "rich" people take a car's operating costs into consideration?

They do.

But if they buy such a car then they should also be prepared to pay for maintenance costs if they're needed. Very simple.

[cawimmer430]

Rich people don't end up that way from blowing thousands of $ on repair costs. Even if the repair bill was "only" $1,000, that's still money being flushed down the toilet instead of being invested in something that produces a return.

See my response to Sporty.

I think every normal car owner will have some money aside for car-related issues: fuel bills, REPAIR BILLS etc.

[sportyaccordy]

They do.

But if they buy such a car then they should also be prepared to pay for maintenance costs if they're needed. Very simple.

I don't think you understand the difference between maintenance (oil changes, brakes, tires etc) and repairs (shit that is supposed to work that breaks and needs fixing). I don't think anyone who buys a luxury car new complains about maintenance. Every car needs maintenance. But to pay $50, 60, 100K for a car and then have it need a random tow or not work properly is unacceptable. And for a long time that was the norm for many European cars in America. Engine destroying oil seal failures is not maintenance. Shock towers that rust out and collapse is not maintenance. Electrical failures are not maintenance. But those were some of the problems German cars had in the late 90s here. Even in warranty, where that shit is covered, it's unacceptable.

Now I know you don't believe that could be possible, or that it was the owner's fault, or that Japanese cars have the same problems, but that was the reality in the U.S. for quite some time, which is why the Japanese were able to get such a stronghold in the luxury market. I mean it's all out there for you to see.

[Tave]

They do.

But if they buy such a car then they should also be prepared to pay for maintenance costs if they're needed. Very simple.

Why should they expect to pay those costs when other luxury makes offer similar products that do not cost as much to operate?

[CJ]

Why should they expect to pay those costs when other luxury makes offer similar products that do not cost as much to operate?

HISTORY AND HERITAGE. 




I'd be willing to bet that very few American consumers give two shits about the history and heritage of a brand.  The average consumer wants a quality product that is good value for money, safe, and reliable. 

[Vinsanity]

I would willingly stay away from those cars because of massive rust and quality issues.

OMG. Where have I heard this before...

...oh right, that's us telling you about the Plymouth Volare.

[cawimmer430]

I don't think you understand the difference between maintenance (oil changes, brakes, tires etc) and repairs (shit that is supposed to work that breaks and needs fixing). I don't think anyone who buys a luxury car new complains about maintenance. Every car needs maintenance. But to pay $50, 60, 100K for a car and then have it need a random tow or not work properly is unacceptable. And for a long time that was the norm for many European cars in America.

I understand the difference completely and I cannot relate to this "completely unreliable European POS car" talk at all. I've never experienced this in our cars and the cars of my friends or clients. Either our cars heading your way get some other electrical systems or you complain about little issues and make an elephant out of them.

Engine destroying oil seal failures is not maintenance.

Nikasil on engine cylinder linings + poor US fuel quality = that problem. 

Shock towers that rust out and collapse is not maintenance. Electrical failures are not maintenance. But those were some of the problems German cars had in the late 90s here. Even in warranty, where that shit is covered, it's unacceptable.

The 1990s were a crap time for German cars. The word cost-cutting was practiced at these firms due to economic and competitive reasons. Naturally quality suffered.

But the quality they offer today is nothing like the quality from the mid-1990s. It's much, much, much better.

[cawimmer430]

OMG. Where have I heard this before...

...oh right, that's us telling you about the Plymouth Volare.

What the Volare lacks in quality it makes up for with gorgeous styling and visual character. 

[SVT666]

HISTORY AND HERITAGE. 




I'd be willing to bet that very few American consumers give two shits about the history and heritage of a brand.  The average consumer wants a quality product that is good value for money, safe, and reliable. 

I think you're wrong.  The only way cars like the 5 Series GT and the X6 could possibly sell is on H&H.  BMW, Jaguar, M-B, etc all sell primarily on H&H.  I know a couple who bought a 128i and I asked them how they liked it.  Their answer word for word, "It's nice.  I have wanted a BMW for 30 years but they have always been too expensive.  They came out with a cheap one, so we bought it." 

[68_427]

The Superb is a great choice IMO.

[cawimmer430]

The Superb is a great choice IMO.

It is. A truly great car built on the VW Passat platform.

I need help financing it but I'm pretty much set on getting a used model beginning next year (January/February). I'm looking for a Combi with the 140-hp 2.0 TDI engine, FWD/AWD and DSG transmission. Elegance trim would be great (wood interior etc.).

This would be my dream Superb Combi - those rims, that color and that interior trim (sans the leather seats, I hate leather seats).








But this is the most important part - SPACE!









Here's a BMW 1-Series trunk. 

[Raza]

140bhp isn't a whole lot to pull a car of that size and weight.  What about a Passat R36?

[cawimmer430]

140bhp isn't a whole lot to pull a car of that size and weight.  What about a Passat R36?

I know you're being sarcastic and trying to emulate me.

The 140-hp TDI has 320 Nm of torque. That's enough for quick acceleration and overtaking speeds. Again, I am not looking for performance - range and fuel economy is what I need neither which the 118i with it's small 50-L fuel tank and appetite for fuel offers.

[Raza]

I know you're being sarcastic and trying to emulate me.

The 140-hp TDI has 320 Nm of torque. That's enough for quick acceleration and overtaking speeds. Again, I am not looking for performance - range and fuel economy is what I need neither which the 118i with it's small 50-L fuel tank and appetite for fuel offers.

Why not something with a 2.0T or the 1.4 twincharge?

[68_427]

Why not something with a 2.0T or the 1.4 twincharge?

30mpg US isn't good MPG over there.

[CJ]

I think you're wrong.  The only way cars like the 5 Series GT and the X6 could possibly sell is on H&H.  BMW, Jaguar, M-B, etc all sell primarily on H&H.  I know a couple who bought a 128i and I asked them how they liked it.  Their answer word for word, "It's nice.  I have wanted a BMW for 30 years but they have always been too expensive.  They came out with a cheap one, so we bought it." 

And that's where I disagree with you.  Consumers are more concerned about brand image than history and heritage.  A BMW means that you've 'made it' in the world.  A Camry doesn't.

[SVT666]

And that's where I disagree with you.  Consumers are more concerned about brand image than history and heritage.  A BMW means that you've 'made it' in the world.  A Camry doesn't.

Where do you think that brand image comes from?  H&H