Lexus ES!

[sportyaccordy]

I'm comparing the "old" E90 WAGON to the current S204 C-Class WAGON.

The current F30 WAGON isn't even out yet. Once it is, then we can talk. And it'll most likely be hampered by the fact that BMW places their engines behind the front axle. No matter how intelligent the interior design, this will always take away some precious interior space.

The E90 is roomier than the W204 too

http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/interior.aspx?c=0&i=0&ph1=t0&ph2=t0&tb=0&dt=0&cp-documentid=0&v=t111527&v=t111758

Oh please. The C-Class has good driving dynamics that'll satisfy most people. If you want something sportier there's always a 3er or Infiniti G. Big deal.

Right but so do most cars. But cars in that segment are called sport sedans. Mercedes even claims the C to be a sport sedan itself:

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model?class=C&model=C250WZ

So in that context its not as good. But even practically, its not as good. We already established the W204 is not as roomy as neither the F30 NOR the E90.

But guess what. Its also less economical to run in ALL trims:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=30053&id=30323&id=30058&id=30322

Has worse depreciation:

http://www.cars.com/go/alg/index.jsp?makename=Mercedes-Benz&modelname=C+CLASS&year=2012
http://www.cars.com/go/alg/index.jsp?makename=BMW&modelname=3+SERIES&year=2012

And is probably less reliable too.

So even outside of the context of sportiness, by many many measures the C-class is just worse than the 3, and its been this way since the W201.

I don't drive like crazy, I don't need a 3er and the current S204 wagon offers more interior and luggage space than the E90 Wagon. I don't need to explain which car I would choose here based on what my needs are.

You don't need to, but you did, and you were wrong.

Really?

Guess you missed those posts where I hate on the new M-Class, SLK or SL.

Which cars in those segments would you go with instead, if given the choice?

When someone comes along and claims that "every single car in this class needs to try and beat the 3er", then I have a problem with that. Because it's bullshit. The Mercedes C-Class has never tried to be dynamically superior car. It's focus was always on a balance between sport and luxury and it does that quite well.

The 3 is the benchmark, and if the C wants to take the crown it has to compete with it. You know it can't, which is why you claim it shouldn't have to. But again, by pretty much every metric you've deemed as "important", both the E90 and F30 have the C beat. And on top of that, it doesn't cost more, and is more engaging to drive. BMW & Driverisms aside, it's just a better car, and its perpetual dominance in sales over the C show this.

[cawimmer430]

The E90 is roomier than the W204 too

You know, that's what fans of the third generation Lexus GS also claimed - that it has the largest interior space volume. That number means shit if I felt like a sardine can in the back (and front), which I did when I checked it out. At the time my family had the W211 E320 and that thing was roomy inside despite having "less interior space" in terms of numbers.

It's the same with the E90 vs S204. My equipment wouldn't into the back of the 3er Touring. In contrast the luggage space of the S204 was better laid out - flatter, wider and longer (and higher). So if the 3er Touring has more interior space in terms of pure volume, it's not working to its advantage.

Right but so do most cars. But cars in that segment are called sport sedans. Mercedes even claims the C to be a sport sedan itself:

And the current C-Class is sporty car in its own way. It's not as sporty as a 3-Series. Big deal.

So even outside of the context of sportiness, by many many measures the C-class is just worse than the 3, and its been this way since the W201.

Nothing in the standard W201 lineup was even remotely biased towards sport.

You had to go to the 190E 2.3-16V and  190E 2.5-16V as well as the EVO I and EVO II models for that. And back in their day those were an alternative to the 3-Series.

Which cars in those segments would you go with instead, if given the choice?

If I had the choice I'd go for a Skoda Superb Combi or Citroen C5 Touring. FWD means more effective interior packaging and better traction in the winters. The 1-Series is terrible in the snow and I shouldn't even bother taking trips to some locations here in the winter because I'll get stuck.

Between the 3er Touring E90 and S204 C-Class Wagon, I'd take the C-Class wagon anytime for the roomy luggage compartment. It's easy to fill and stow and can handle more of my gear than the E90 Touring. The E90 Touring was a disappointment. A nice C220 CDI or C180 Kompressor works for me. AWD would be nice but that means upgrading to a C250 CDI 4Matic and I don't need that when a '220 CDI is sufficient.

The 3 is the benchmark, and if the C wants to take the crown it has to compete with it. You know it can't, which is why you claim it shouldn't have to.

What do you mean by "it can't"? Sounds kind of ignorant. Do you really think Mercedes' couldn't build a dynamically competitive car to the 3er? After all the C-Class is competes in DTM (which BMW is now re-entering) where it has a special 4.0 V8 N/A motor (with 500-hp) and purposefully tuned suspension. This is done by Mercedes' Motorsport division and no outsourcing job.

Let's get real here. What sells the C-Class is a balance between sport and comfort. Most C-Class customers want that, aside from the badge. It's a big plus if you have a car that handles well and is also comfortable. There are other reasons to get a C-Class. The reputation for safety is well-known for Mercedes' products. Some people might like the design of the C-Class better than the 3er. Some people might like the way it drives better. Who knows? Who cares? Both cars are the top sellers in their segments and I ascribe that more to their badge reputation than most people actually caring about driving dynamics.

[GoCougs]

Unlike the G, 3er, A4, IS, etc., the C-class provides no differentiation vs. its more expensive stablemates other than price and size. It's badge-snob bait and why I've never had any respect for it.

[Atomic]

i see the lexus ES as an entry level into the company's luxury fold. for an individual or family man looking to move up from a toyota, loving the GS or LS but either not able or not will to pay the price of either those two higher priced vehicles. the acura TL is that same short of car for the honda enthusiast wanting that "near luxury" experience. once they get a taste of one and the leaps-and bounds superior customer services, they may very well move up into something even more luxury oriented. 

[cawimmer430]

Unlike the G, 3er, A4, IS, etc., the C-class provides no differentiation vs. its more expensive stablemates other than price and size. It's badge-snob bait and why I've never had any respect for it.

Huh?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Uh oh

[sportyaccordy]

Huh?

Cougs hit it on the nose. The non-sport package 3 series is a more fun to drive, more economical, more spacious, slower depreciating car than the C-Class. Aside from purely subjective attributes (styling, badge) there is no reason to get one over a 3. You speak as though the base 3er is some stripped out race car... its no less comfortable or luxurious than a C-Class, and its objectively better on many fronts....

I put it like this... say a friend of yours was looking at cars and he wanted to choose between the E90 and the W204. What could you say to convince him to go for the Benz?

[Vinsanity]

Cougs hit it on the nose. The non-sport package 3 series is a more fun to drive, more economical, more spacious, slower depreciating car than the C-Class. Aside from purely subjective attributes (styling, badge) there is no reason to get one over a 3. You speak as though the base 3er is some stripped out race car... its no less comfortable or luxurious than a C-Class, and its objectively better on many fronts....

I put it like this... say a friend of yours was looking at cars and he wanted to choose between the E90 and the W204. What could you say to convince him to go for the Benz?

And because I buy my cars used, the part in bold would be my main reason for considering a C-class over a 3-series sedan.

[sportyaccordy]

You get what you pay for...

[Raza]

Unlike the G, 3er, A4, IS, etc., the C-class provides no differentiation vs. its more expensive stablemates other than price and size. It's badge-snob bait and why I've never had any respect for it.

It actually is a pretty fun car and it's not a 3 series, which is can be enough.  But now that they dropped the stick, the only reason to get it over an IS is space.

But, in the end, I really doubt any of those cars are as fun to drive or as practical as a four door GTI.

[Colonel Cadillac]

It actually is a pretty fun car and it's not a 3 series, which is can be enough.  But now that they dropped the stick, the only reason to get it over an IS is space.

But, in the end, I really doubt any of those cars are as fun to drive or as practical as a four door GTI.

They are better looking!

[Raza]

They are better looking!

The A4 and C class, yeah.  But the others?  Eh.....

[sportyaccordy]

It actually is a pretty fun car and it's not a 3 series, which is can be enough.  But now that they dropped the stick, the only reason to get it over an IS is space.

But, in the end, I really doubt any of those cars are as fun to drive or as practical as a four door GTI.

Even the G? I haven't driven a new one but the old one felt surprisingly light on its feet, for what it was.

[Raza]

Even the G? I haven't driven a new one but the old one felt surprisingly light on its feet, for what it was.

I also haven't driven the new one, but I was not a fan of it.  It suffered all the bad parts to the experience as the 350Z, but with more weight that put you even further from the driving experience.  It's a great car, on paper, but I didn't like it in the real world (same as the 350Z, which is a shame because it has such good looks and great specs that I still want one; it's kind of like a Japanese TT, but in an opposite way).