Chang'An CS35, and Raeton

[2o6]

With the competent, yet bland Eado just gone on sale, Chang'An previews two models also soon to go on sale.



The styling is Asia-generic, but yet again, I can't pick out a direct clone on either model. Interior looks to be VERY good. Who knows how it drives or crashes, but from these initial photos, the products look very competent.

http://www.chinacartimes.com/2012/05/05/changan-cs35/








I can pick out some of the old Lexus ES, and a little Lacrosse and just a hint of Genesis (which itself is a very generic design) but it's pretty inoffensive.

[giant_mtb]

I see some Audi there...

[2o6]

And I see some Buick Lacrosse.

[ifcar]

I see a fair bit of the new Escape in the crossover and a lot of the Asia-spec Camry in the sedan's front and rear end:

[Raza]

Who cares about the Chinese car industry anyway?  The factories will all be rubble midway through WW3 and likely irradiated for years to come. 

[2o6]

Who cares about the Chinese car industry anyway?  The factories will all be rubble midway through WW3 and likely irradiated for years to come. 

We should care because their move to competency is coming faster than the Koreans or Japanese.

I see a fair bit of the new Escape in the crossover and a lot of the Asia-spec Camry in the sedan's front and rear end:

I will agree the sedan does look like a previous gen Toyota. I don't think its an explicit clone, though. Every styling element on both of these cars have been done before.

[Colonel Cadillac]

We should care because their move to competency is coming faster than the Koreans or Japanese.

It's not surprising given that foreign automakers who want to sell cars in China have to team up with domestic Chinese automakers and share their technology.

[Laconian]

It's not surprising given that foreign automakers who want to sell cars in China have to team up with domestic Chinese automakers and share their technology.

+5000

A lot of Chinese companies steal the technology and IP they gain access to, too. I've heard of waves of employee defects from "partner" companies to new companies, and the new company, unencumbered by any partnerships, magically start creating new products that are essentially identical to the one that was created with its previous partner.

[2o6]

It's not surprising given that foreign automakers who want to sell cars in China have to team up with domestic Chinese automakers and share their technology.

Chang'An's partner is Suzuki. It's odd to think that more established makes aren't bringing their partners along further, but Chang'an's products seem almost ready for western export. The rest of the mainland (except maybe Luxgen, but Luxgen is actually Taiwanese) still for the most part builds cloned crap, and a lot of of it. Look at Chery, they have around 10 models, all of the same price and size, on sale at the same time. Geely seems to be OK, but when examined, some of their models are clones of more established makes. Geely' Heck, even Brilliance still uses old Mitsubishi engines in some of their products. FAW's competent products all use Mazda roots, and It's unclear if the Haima (FAW subsidiary) Cupid was done with Mazda's blessing or not. BYD is a joke, not even able to produce quality clones. Great Wall doesn't attempt to create cars themselves, but they just take a current western model, and endow it with some new styling, and stick an old Mitsubishi unit motor in there. Most of Lifan's cars use the old Citroen ZX as a basis. Most of China's auto manufacturers are not ready for the west. And to top it off, more established makes are venturing to make products that cater better to the Chinese people. AFAIK, the Chinese don't particularly care for the home market's products either; there's a huge trend of buying an import make when one can afford them. The top brands in china are all imports, except for Chery.

However, Chang'an looks to be the closest out of all of them to making a competent product....nothing about these designs is unique, but nothing on them is explicitly cloned either. At least from pictures, the fit and finish of the interiors look to be pretty good, if not on par with many western makes. Chang'an's products AFAIK seem to be unique and ground up all by themselves, not using cloned architecture.



(Haima Cupid)

[2o6]

+5000

A lot of Chinese companies steal the technology and IP they gain access to, too. I've heard of waves of employee defects from "partner" companies to new companies, and the new company, unencumbered by any partnerships, magically start creating new products that are essentially identical to the one that was created with its previous partner.

I'm not doubting the various IP problems that exist in China, but if so much information was stolen, then why do China's products still suck for the most part?


I mean, Lenovo seems to be doing OK. Initially, Geely seems to be running Volvo with no problems. In fact, they seem to be infusing Volvo with much needed cash flow, and they are setting forth very ambitious goals for the company.

[Northlands]

I'm not doubting the various IP problems that exist in China, but if so much information was stolen, then why do China's products still suck for the most part?


I mean, Lenovo seems to be doing OK. Initially, Geely seems to be running Volvo with no problems. In fact, they seem to be infusing Volvo with much needed cash flow, and they are setting forth very ambitious goals for the company.

I'd say their products suck domestically because there still is very little incentive to make anything safe. Lack of consumer protection and safety laws could be a good part in that. They could have all of the design IP , but not bother with a lot of it because spending the extra money on crash worthiness isn't a priority when there is little incentive to do it.

[giant_mtb]

And I see some Buick Lacrosse.

...where...? lol

[cawimmer430]

CS35 looks like a Kia Soul rip-off with a few Mazda styling cues thrown in for a good measure.

[WookieOnRitalin]

I see some Audi there...

Looks similar to Suzuki's.

[Raza]

Guys, I'm all for picking apart our enemy, the Chinese, but you're just showing a bunch of center stacks that look nothing alike now.

[S204STi]

Don't know if I could buy a car with a name that sounds like parts falling off in the street.

[TurboDan]

Eh, I've seen worse. If you can get past the fact that the car is probably made of lead and nuclear waste materials, the styling ain't terrible.

[MrH]

Chang'An's partner is Suzuki. It's odd to think that more established makes aren't bringing their partners along further, but Chang'an's products seem almost ready for western export. The rest of the mainland (except maybe Luxgen, but Luxgen is actually Taiwanese) still for the most part builds cloned crap, and a lot of of it. Look at Chery, they have around 10 models, all of the same price and size, on sale at the same time. Geely seems to be OK, but when examined, some of their models are clones of more established makes. Geely' Heck, even Brilliance still uses old Mitsubishi engines in some of their products. FAW's competent products all use Mazda roots, and It's unclear if the Haima (FAW subsidiary) Cupid was done with Mazda's blessing or not. BYD is a joke, not even able to produce quality clones. Great Wall doesn't attempt to create cars themselves, but they just take a current western model, and endow it with some new styling, and stick an old Mitsubishi unit motor in there. Most of Lifan's cars use the old Citroen ZX as a basis. Most of China's auto manufacturers are not ready for the west. And to top it off, more established makes are venturing to make products that cater better to the Chinese people. AFAIK, the Chinese don't particularly care for the home market's products either; there's a huge trend of buying an import make when one can afford them. The top brands in china are all imports, except for Chery.

However, Chang'an looks to be the closest out of all of them to making a competent product....nothing about these designs is unique, but nothing on them is explicitly cloned either. At least from pictures, the fit and finish of the interiors look to be pretty good, if not on par with many western makes. Chang'an's products AFAIK seem to be unique and ground up all by themselves, not using cloned architecture.



(Haima Cupid)

As someone who's working extensively on China business pursuit in the automotive world every day, I say this as respectfully as possible, so don't take this the wrong way, but....you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[2o6]

As someone who's working extensively on China business pursuit in the automotive world every day, I say this as respectfully as possible, so don't take this the wrong way, but....you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Is it really that bad? I try to look at everything with a very positive outlook but obviously I don't have any sort of business insight, nor will I ever (never planned on going into that field).



That just seems to be from what I can see from the surface.

[giant_mtb]

Looks similar to Suzuki's.

I wasn't so much talking about the shifter itself as I was about the surrounding parts.  Eerily similar shapes.  But yes, the shifter, its pattern, and bezel is rather similar, as well.

[LonghornTX]

I've said this before, but the Chinese auto sector will never be fit for Western consumption until they ween themselves off their business model of requiring JVs for domestic sale. Without it, there is simply not a free enough market to promote the type of innovation that would make their models palatable for our consumption. One could even argue it comes down to how they educate their people. So little creativity, and so much focus on rote learning. I go to graduate school with a fair amount of Chinese nationals, and I can't tell you the number of times I have had to rewrite entire sections of a group paper because they simply copied and pasted from the internet, with a few words changed...

Their cars drive sh*tty, and now, instead of being direct copies, they are just combinations of styling cues from other makes. I almost feel bad for them (almost, because their governments policies towards the automotive sector make me p*ssed off), because they could be such a dominant force if they just put in the work and accept that it will take time (like it did for the Koreans and Japanese)

[LonghornTX]

Is it really that bad? I try to look at everything with a very positive outlook but obviously I don't have any sort of business insight, nor will I ever (never planned on going into that field).



That just seems to be from what I can see from the surface.

Yes, it is that bad. The Chinese are only able to get away with it because Western companies chase short-term profits and loved its rapidly growing market. However, with their auto market cooling off, and their economy slowing down, it will be interesting to see what happens once their strong negotiating position goes away...

[MrH]

I've said this before, but the Chinese auto sector will never be fit for Western consumption until they ween themselves off their business model of requiring JVs for domestic sale. Without it, there is simply not a free enough market to promote the type of innovation that would make their models palatable for our consumption. One could even argue it comes down to how they educate their people. So little creativity, and so much focus on rote learning. I go to graduate school with a fair amount of Chinese nationals, and I can't tell you the number of times I have had to rewrite entire sections of a group paper because they simply copied and pasted from the internet, with a few words changed...

Their cars drive sh*tty, and now, instead of being direct copies, they are just combinations of styling cues from other makes. I almost feel bad for them (almost, because their governments policies towards the automotive sector make me p*ssed off), because they could be such a dominant force if they just put in the work and accept that it will take time (like it did for the Koreans and Japanese)

This.

Though, I'd argue that the artificial manipulation of the Japanese currency when they first emerged is a big part of their success (coming back to bite them now obviously).  The Koreans are doing the same thing right now.

[565]

One could even argue it comes down to how they educate their people. So little creativity, and so much focus on rote learning. I go to graduate school with a fair amount of Chinese nationals, and I can't tell you the number of times I have had to rewrite entire sections of a group paper because they simply copied and pasted from the internet, with a few words changed...

I've seen this first hand as well.  But it's really got nothing to do with any inherent feature of the Chinese education system.  Actually it's got everything to do with the fact that many Asian foreign students that secure places in American universities managed to do so because of less than honest practices that are more or less expected given the competition, so they don't see anything wrong with copying.  They've got no honor code whatsoever.  This is pretty much rampant with foreign students from China, South Korea, India, and pretty much every Asian country.

Here is a nice little article talking about the issue.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/thailand/120103/US-college-application-fraud-asia-elite-economy-china

I knew this Indian kid in college that told me that his entire application was more or less a lie, and that you pretty much needed it to get admission these days from India considering the competition.  Then I found out a few other students, one Chinese, one Korean, that totally did something similar.  I was kinda shocked at first, but then realized that it was almost universal among those foreign students.

It doesn't mean they aren't smart.  They were all brilliant as hell, but all of their applications were still a complete lie, because everyone else applying is brilliant as hell as well.

[CALL_911]

To be fair, this is rampant with American kids when it comes to elite college applications.

[LonghornTX]

I've seen this first hand as well.  But it's really got nothing to do with any inherent feature of the Chinese education system.  Actually it's got everything to do with the fact that many Asian foreign students that secure places in American universities managed to do so because of less than honest practices that are more or less expected given the competition, so they don't see anything wrong with copying.  They've got no honor code whatsoever.  This is pretty much rampant with foreign students from China, South Korea, India, and pretty much every Asian country.

Here is a nice little article talking about the issue.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/thailand/120103/US-college-application-fraud-asia-elite-economy-china

I knew this Indian kid in college that told me that his entire application was more or less a lie, and that you pretty much needed it to get admission these days from India considering the competition.  Then I found out a few other students, one Chinese, one Korean, that totally did something similar.  I was kinda shocked at first, but then realized that it was almost universal among those foreign students.

It doesn't mean they aren't smart.  They were all brilliant as hell, but all of their applications were still a complete lie, because everyone else applying is brilliant as hell as well.

It is definitely that too, for sure.

I was referring to the lengths kids go there to perform past their classmates on their version of the SAT (it starts with a g, I am forgetting the name). They can only take it once and it basically determines their destiny from then on as far as access to academics.

But yea, they all talked about how they cheated the GMAT, which is pretty common in China (from their accounts). They also talked about their high school, and how much it focused on memorization. Less design and artistic focused endeavors, so things like creative writing are less focused upon.

This may apply to other Asian societies, but it has only been my experience with Chinese thus far (I go to school with a lot of JP, KO, and IN nationals as well)

[Laconian]

I was referring to the lengths kids go there to perform past their classmates on their version of the SAT (it starts with a g, I am forgetting the name). They can only take it once and it basically determines their destiny from then on as far as access to academics.

Gao kao