Interesting counterpoint on the ATS

[TurboDan]

Uh, the C-class isn't a $150,000 car.  The 08 model also had a pretty bland interior and was nothing to write home about.  Its faint praise at best.

Not a fan of the C's interior. My cousin is here for the weekend, and she drives an '09 C350. It's a nice looking car, but not feeling the positioning of the LCD screen. Looked cheap to me. 

[sportyaccordy]

Your point being?  Who cares where cars are built nor does the avg buyer know.  They do know, however, that the Cadillac is an American brand.  You're delusional if you think that American buyers wouldn't appreciate an American car.  And patriotism isn't in place of a good product but it does add to the appeal.  So you have a product that's as good as the 3 series but is also American. 

Do you honestly hate this car, and are that far up Jack's ludicrous point, that you aren't even willing to consider that American car buyers value a good American car? 

Like I said, if Americans appreciated good American cars, American cars would dominate American sales charts. Instead their volume models rely on fleet sales to move units (despite the cars not being that far off from foreign competition). The death of cars like the Contour, G8, STS, and GTO show Americans don't even appreciate legitimately good American cars. So lets put that to bed.

I have no stake in this car's success or failure so I don't know what you're trying to insinuate. How/why would I hate this car? I have said a hundred times it will prob be one of, if not THE best car to come from Cadillac- but its market position all but dooms its chance of success based on what is known about it and the market its entering. If this had come out 10 years ago w/the CTS and STS moving up to 5/7 spots it would succeed. This position was ripe for the taking THEN.  Now, not so much.

[sportyaccordy]

The point being the base CTS 3.6 costs $43k (with the base CTS 3.0 at $36k). I'm not sure what is going on here with this pricing overlap...

I was being sarcastic. To be fair, the CTS is getting a big revamp that will supposedly warrant a $10-15K price hike while using the ATS top engines. Like I said it will be interesting to see where GM spends that $$$.

I'm kind of surprised that anyone cares this much about Cadillac.

Everyone likes an underdog story, sometimes beyond the point of reason.

[TurboDan]

Audi has had a full line up since the 80s. So why did it take the B5 A4 to bring it to legitimacy? Its cars were competitive + unique, and even through the mid 90s before the A4 most of their cars had good reason to be bought over a comparable Bimmer for a large amt of customers. Hell the Audi 5000 was a huge precursor for modern auto design. So what happened?

If it took 20 years, it took 20 years. But remember, in that time period they had to deal with the BS "unintended acceleration" issue with 60 Minutes. My dad's Audi GT from the late 80s was still running when he got rid of it in 2002 in favor of an A6 (which he still has, generally trouble free except maintenance items). I'd take that car over a comparable Bimmer in a second, but while it was unique, it wasn't the massive boat with a V8 engine you're proposing. Your preconceived notions of American cars are blinding you to market trends that don't support the previous American model.

GM is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. They and you guys are trying to rationalize them selling less car for more money in the name of "competing with the Germans". When really, for $34-35K, they're gonna be going from selling a midsize car w/a 270HP V6 to a compact car w/a 170HP 4 banger. Maybe thats "German" to you, but to me that's stupid + a ripoff. Im def curious to see how GM adds 10-15K worth of content to the CTS w/o upgrading the engines. You think folks are gonna go for that? The only companies that can get away w/that are companies w/the brand equity to get away w/selling vinyl seats in a $40K car. Cadillac is NOT one of those companies.

Why is the ATS "less than" the German competition? Forget the engine for a second. It doesn't look ANYTHING like a 3er or an A4 or an IS. I happen to love A&S and that would be an attractive trait right there. And vinyl seats in a $40K car was INVENTED by BMW, by the way. I could price out a $50K 3er with "leatherette" in no time.

Porsche is a GERMAN luxury brand (according to folks here) that doesn't follow the 3/5/7 architecture. Lexus' volume models do not fit within the 3/5/7 architecture (ES, RX). BMW, Audi, Mercedes have tapped out the volume on their 3/5/7s and are growing through niches. The 3/5/7 brand model is DEAD. There's no growth in it, and barring a car that is 1000x better/different than the competition (i.e. 1990 LS) theres no way to muscle in.

WTF? 3er = IS. 5er = GS. 7er = LS. The only wildcard is the ES. They fit the mold perfectly, but threw an extra model in.

[Rupert]

Neat

Ain't it, though?

[VetteZ06]

That's one reviewers opinion.  The CL gets every, single, miniscule detail right.  Top to bottom, it's over engineered and designed to the point of obsession.  Even the plastic on the door sills feels substantial.

Well, I suppose it bodes well for Cadillac that the XTS makes a strong enough first impression to put a chink in the CL's impenetrable armor, no? Maybe he was just shocked that he legitimately couldn't find anything to complain about, but the fact that the car is inviting such comparisons is good news.

The death of cars like the Contour, G8, STS, and GTO show Americans don't even appreciate legitimately good American cars. So lets put that to bed.

Thank goodness you were able to come up with an exhaustive list of "good American cars." I'm surprised there are only four of them.

[TurboDan]

The death of cars like the Contour

Ummmm..... Presenting the 2013 Ford Fusion......

[Colonel Cadillac]

WTF? 3er = IS. 5er = GS. 7er = LS. The only wildcard is the ES. They fit the mold perfectly, but threw an extra model in.

The SUV lineup fits a similar mold; small, medium, large. RX, GX, LX = GLK, ML, GL. RX, GX = X3, X5 (and BMW is dumb for not building an X7)

[sportyaccordy]

If it took 20 years, it took 20 years. But remember, in that time period they had to deal with the BS "unintended acceleration" issue with 60 Minutes. My dad's Audi GT from the late 80s was still running when he got rid of it in 2002 in favor of an A6 (which he still has, generally trouble free except maintenance items). I'd take that car over a comparable Bimmer in a second, but while it was unique, it wasn't the massive boat with a V8 engine you're proposing. Your preconceived notions of American cars are blinding you to market trends that don't support the previous American model.

Right. Because Audi's rep was ruined, even though they made good cars it took an extraordinary car to get them back on track in the US. And again, I never proposed a V8 boat for Cadillac. I don't even know how a boat would help them, they are a car company

Why is the ATS "less than" the German competition? Forget the engine for a second. It doesn't look ANYTHING like a 3er or an A4 or an IS. I happen to love A&S and that would be an attractive trait right there. And vinyl seats in a $40K car was INVENTED by BMW, by the way. I could price out a $50K 3er with "leatherette" in no time.

Never said the ATS was less than. In fact I have said repeatedly that it will prob be an excellent car, and is basically a Caddy 3 series. My point was, is, and will be after you still fail to understand it, a Caddy 3 series clone in price/engines is not a good idea in the current market conditions. NOT that they need to replace it with a marine vehicle, NOT that Caddy can't make a 3 series beater, not any of the goofy fucking points you guys keep falsely attaching to me.

WTF? 3er = IS. 5er = GS. 7er = LS. The only wildcard is the ES. They fit the mold perfectly, but threw an extra model in.

And like I said, the ES has outsold every other model in Lexus' 3/5/7 lineup... in some years it outsold the WHOLE lineup. And its not cheap! It costs more than the IS. Should they get rid of it because it doesn't compete w/any BMW? Was it a bad idea? Why can't Cadillac come up with their own wildcard cars? Their only successes in the last decade (CTS, Escalade) were wildcards.

A lot of successful cars are wildcards. The 3 series was a wildcard when it came out. The Camry was a wildcard when it came out. The Lexus LS and ES were wildcards. The Prius was a wildcard. 911 was a wildcard. If a successful car wasn't a wildcard, it had a clear distinction from its competitors that justified its place in the marketplace. CTS, G, new Sonata, 2002 Altima... The manufacturers who succeeded by playing it safe are the ones who have established marques they don't want to alienate people with by deviating too much  (3 series, Camry, 911). Caddy should be taking risks, not playing it safe. I'm getting tired of repeating myself. If you guys don't get it now you never will

[VetteZ06]

Well, just so we're clear, being a contrarian douche along with Baruth doesn't necessarily mean you're right. You understand that, don't you?

This will be fun to revisit if the ATS does well.

[sportyaccordy]

GM wants this to sell 60K. If it sells half that I will be surprised.

And how have I been a douche? I haven't insulted anybody, I haven't made any personal attacks, I haven't made any psychological inferences, I haven't twisted around anything anyone has said. But everyone who disagrees with me has. Rather than call me a douche, why not explain how I'm wrong?

[GoCougs]

Sporty, you're a "douche" for not agreeing with a fanboy. It's a unique concept that my very well change the whole of the Innertards.

[VetteZ06]

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. If you guys don't get it now you never will

Seriously, douche to the max right here. You make a few valid points here and there, but statements like this piss away any desire I have to agree with you. If you can so accurately feel the pulse of the American car buying public, perhaps you're in the wrong profession. You have convinced yourself beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're right, so perhaps it's best for you to let the blind idiots eat their crow in about a year or so.

I firmly believe the ATS is a necessary move for Cadillac to make, and I'm very happy with what I've seen so far. I think it would've been risky to assume they could grow and succeed to their full potential as a brand without having a player in this segment. However, the ATS isn't the end of the line. In the next few years we're going to see more new cars coming from Cadillac that will flesh our their future to a greater degree. Personally, if they're going to take a "risk," I'd like to see it in the form of a full size sedan/halo car that takes styling cues from the Ciel concept. Now that would be awesome.

Sporty, you're a "douche" for not agreeing with a fanboy. It's a unique concept that my very well change the whole of the Innertards.

No comments from fleet drivers, please.

[GoCougs]

No comments from fleet drivers, please.

What's a fleet driver?

[VetteZ06]

What's a fleet driver?

You tell me, Carfax.

[GoCougs]

You tell me, Carfax.

I don't know what that means.

So what do you drive?

[VetteZ06]

I'm sure you don't.

I usually prefer shopping at Enterprise or Avis, but to each his own, right?

[GoCougs]

I'm sure you don't.

I usually prefer shopping at Enterprise or Avis, but to each his own, right?

So what do you drive?

[VetteZ06]

I should probably kick myself for getting dragged into a pissing match with you. Not much has changed over the years, apparently.

In any case, depending on the day, either a Ram Laramie Quad Cab or a Wrangler Sahara (two-door, not Unlimited).

Fortunately, because both were new, I can also ensure they've received proper maintenance.

[GoCougs]

I should probably kick myself for getting dragged into a pissing match with you. Not much has changed over the years, apparently.

In any case, depending on the day, either a Ram Laramie Quad Cab or a Wrangler Sahara (two-door, not Unlimited).

Fortunately, because both were new, I can also ensure they've received proper maintenance.

Dragged? Nah, son, you just done got called out a bit. Your 'SPINning needs a bit of improvement, and I'm here to help.

Also, with such a gaggle of pooprod motors, solid axles, and leaf springs, by definition you're way closer to being a fleet driver than I.

[VetteZ06]

Also, with such a gaggle of pooprod motors, solid axles, and leaf springs, by definition you're way closer to being a fleet driver than I.

Well, you've known pleasure to which only a manager at Hertz can relate. I'm humbled.

I think pushrods and leaf springs haunt your dreams, by the way. You do have a certain obsession with them. However, I'm sure you know more about the DOHC Pentastar V-6 than I do. With the 5.7, I just don't care.

[68_427]

Love this thread.

[GoCougs]

Fellow 'SPINners, please help with translation if you have ideas. His trolling is absolutely terrible, and I'm not only talking about fanboying the never seen/never driven/never tested ATS to irrational levels.

[ifcar]

GM wants this to sell 60K. If it sells half that I will be surprised.

Meh, Cadillac sold 55,000 2008-era CTSes last year at a higher price point. I don't see why the ATS can't pull that off. The bigger question is going to be how many ATS buyers would have just bought the CTS anyway, and how Cadillac handles the upcoming transition of the CTS to a higher class.

[280Z Turbo]

I don't know what's going on here, but it seems to me, the ATS won't sell well. It'll be a good car that performs well, but it's not going to be as good as the Germans. It'll be the same old "well, it's good...for a GM product" kinda thing we've been hearing for years.

[VetteZ06]

Meh, Cadillac sold 55,000 2008-era CTSes last year at a higher price point. I don't see why the ATS can't pull that off. The bigger question is going to be how many ATS buyers would have just bought the CTS anyway, and how Cadillac handles the upcoming transition of the CTS to a higher class.

This is the biggest problem I see on the horizon. Because there's going to be some serious overlap, I feel like some may choose the CTS because it appears to be more car for the money (even though that may not be true), but I can also see CTS sales going in the tank temporarily because it's a bit of a lame duck until the new model comes around.

On another note... Cougs, if I pay everything up front, can I have the G37 for a weekend? Just for old time's sake?

[Rupert]

LOL!

[MrH]

Jesus. Read a couple pages of this cluster fuck on my phone. Again, sporty you're so off base, it's painful to read. The sheer arrogance that comes with your posts is what's funny. I'll post something of substance when i can get to a computer tomorrow, along with pretty graphs and numbers instead of just subjective bullshit like what's been tossed around so far.

[GoCougs]

I don't know what's going on here, but it seems to me, the ATS won't sell well. It'll be a good car that performs well, but it's not going to be as good as the Germans. It'll be the same old "well, it's good...for a GM product" kinda thing we've been hearing for years.

What's going on is a weak sauce GM/Detroit fanboy troll getting steamroller'd. It's actually kinda interesting - we really don't get such fresh tasty fodder for the MeatSPIN grinder all that often.

A distinct possibility the ATS will be a repeat of the 2nd gen STS save for some yet-to-be-unveiled Cadillac wildcard; other than some interesting bits it ain't got nothing on the competition - the base N/A I4 is a huge 'lol' for starters.

[GoCougs]

This is the biggest problem I see on the horizon. Because there's going to be some serious overlap, I feel like some may choose the CTS because it appears to be more car for the money (even though that may not be true), but I can also see CTS sales going in the tank temporarily because it's a bit of a lame duck until the new model comes around.

On another note... Cougs, if I pay everything up front, can I have the G37 for a weekend? Just for old time's sake?

Ha, ha, you're terrible at this - you don't stand a chance.