Ford watching Europe's reaction to Mustang in new ads

[cawimmer430]

If I ever become suoer rish, ill have a sierra denali duramax that spews soot all over your puny pandas and shit.

Why get such a pussy truck?

Have you not heard? Ford is releasing their new EXILE SUPER SUV which is double the width of an Excursion and double the length. Oh, and it's powered by a puny little small block 77.6-l V24 gasoline engine. Only costs 1,552 Euros per month in taxes!  

[68_427]

Ford is gay.    Ford plus yurope would be too much gay

[Soup DeVille]

Exactly. It's not that bad.

Diesel cars on the other hand are taxed much higher on engine capacity. Here's the formula.


100cc's of a gasoline engine are taxed at 2,00 EUR.

100cc's of a diesel engine are taxed at 9,50 EUR.


If the Mustang had a 5.4-l V8 DIESEL, it would cost 513 Euro per month.

This make me sad and my head hurt all at the same time.

[SVT666]

This make me sad and my head hurt all at the same time.

That's reason enough for me to never move to Germany.

[TurboDan]

That's reason enough for me to never move to Germany.

Seriously. What do people get for all this money they hand over in taxes? The streets should be paved with fucking gold for that money. I can't wrap my head around why people accept that brand of overtaxation as mainstream, and even the conservative parties are on board with it.

[GoCougs]

We have to remember America is a singular entity - anything from our recent founding, the predication of that on limited government + liberty + guns + private property, to the combination of disparate cultures, to even the superior form of two-party + constitutional republicanism + 3 co-equal branches of government.

Germany? UK? France? Germany? Even Japan? The nuts and bolts of those cultures are alien to Americans - homogeneity, tradition, nationalism, and parliamentary government all tends to force those cultures left and is otherwise far less effective at blunting mob rule mentality.

[Galaxy]

Exactly. It's not that bad.

Diesel cars on the other hand are taxed much higher on engine capacity. Here's the formula.


100cc's of a gasoline engine are taxed at 2,00 EUR.

100cc's of a diesel engine are taxed at 9,50 EUR.


If the Mustang had a 5.4-l V8 DIESEL, it would cost 513 Euro per month.

Sorry but that is wrong.

The Audi Q7 V12 TDI costs ?926 per year in taxes.

[Galaxy]

Seriously. What do people get for all this money they hand over in taxes? The streets should be paved with fucking gold for that money. I can't wrap my head around why people accept that brand of overtaxation as mainstream, and even the conservative parties are on board with it.

The average vehicle tax is ~ ?150 per year. That is not that bad. Something like a Fiat 500 Twin air costs ? 16 per year.

What is probably also more expensive in Germany is the auto liability insurance. Since the minimum legals requirement demands that you get insured for ? 7.5 million to cover injures,  ? 1.12 to cover property damages, and ? 50.000 to cover other damages (example: Someone drives into you and you miss the cruise ship). Call me a proponent of the sissy nanny state, but I actually like this. That some US states allow you to drive with no insurance, or something ridicules like ? 100.000 is problematic imo. If someone plow into me I don't want to have to worry if he can pay for it.  I am not sure what the average is, probably around ?500.

[cawimmer430]

Sorry but that is wrong.

The Audi Q7 V12 TDI costs ?926 per year in taxes.

Whoops, per year, not per month.

[cawimmer430]

Seriously. What do people get for all this money they hand over in taxes? The streets should be paved with fucking gold for that money. I can't wrap my head around why people accept that brand of overtaxation as mainstream, and even the conservative parties are on board with it.

High living standards. Quality roads and reliable and functional public transportation. High safety standards (no weirdos running around with guns blowing people to hell / difficult to buy guns here).

The idea behind the automotive taxation scheme is that if you're going to drive a gas-guzzling and polluting vehicle you better be prepared to do your part in owning it: pay for the fuel it guzzles down etc. Once again, the folks who drive such cars here simply don't care. And the taxation scheme isn't that expensive either.

Fuel costs and insurance costs are the real financial killers.

[TurboDan]

Whoops, per year, not per month.

Oh. Alright, that's not bad then, actually.

[TurboDan]

High living standards. Quality roads and reliable and functional public transportation.

But we have that here too.

High safety standards (no weirdos running around with guns blowing people to hell / difficult to buy guns here).

What do gun regulations have to do with high tax rates?

Also, do you really think that everywhere you go in America weirdos are running around shooting people? But fine, get rid of the guns. I'd rather be stabbed in Germany than shot in the U.S. 

The idea behind the automotive taxation scheme is that if you're going to drive a gas-guzzling and polluting vehicle you better be prepared to do your part in owning it: pay for the fuel it guzzles down etc.

But you're not just paying for the fuel. You're paying a fortune for all kinds of other things. Didn't your government just need to find money somewhere, anywhere, and this is what they chose? My problem with making it prohibitively expensive to drive is that you're punishing people who need to be mobile to facilitate commerce, and in the process trusting the government to spend the money it collects wisely. I know my government is incapable of doing this, and I suspect European governments are just as incompetent.

[cawimmer430]

What do gun regulations have to do with high tax rates?

When you buy a gun here you get 19% VAT slapped on. 

Also, do you really think that everywhere you go in America weirdos are running around shooting people? But fine, get rid of the guns. I'd rather be stabbed in Germany than shot in the U.S. 

I was exaggerating. We have weirdos running around with guns here to, but the process of obtaining a gun is difficult. Furthermore, gun ownership is expensive and annoying as owners are required to have two safes - one for their weapons, one for the ammunition, in their homes of which only they know the combination. Then there will be periodic or unannounced inspections by the Beschuss?mter (weapon inspectors) to check if everything is stored according to regulations. Hefty fines exist for those can't comply.

http://www.beschussamt.de/

But you're not just paying for the fuel. You're paying a fortune for all kinds of other things. Didn't your government just need to find money somewhere, anywhere, and this is what they chose? My problem with making it prohibitively expensive to drive is that you're punishing people who need to be mobile to facilitate commerce, and in the process trusting the government to spend the money it collects wisely. I know my government is incapable of doing this, and I suspect European governments are just as incompetent.

Well yes, the fuel tax is in my opinion completely excessive. But the market has evolved accordingly. Part of my expenses which clients pay for are my traveling/fuel costs.

Fuel is expensive here, but what can we do? Those of us who need their cars for work have no choice but to pull into a gas station and fill up when they're low on gas. In a sense the government has us by the balls with the fuel tax. And the oil companies ain't complaining either. Fuel is an essential part of our daily lives. It's completely overpriced, but we need it and have no choice but to pay for it.

But on the other hand, we can also buy really economical cars here. I use my car for business 80% of the time and I have a pretty economical car overall. A full tank of gas gives me a range of 700 km on average, 500 km in the summers when I use the A/C.

Even if gas were cheap like in the US, I don't see the point of owning a vehicle that gets piss poor fuel economy just because I can afford it. That "cheap gas" will create huge fuel bills especially if I have to stop and refuel all the time. So while I pay close to 90 EUR for barely 50 liters of gas, I can drive 700 km on average with that. Some SUV owners in the US pays what? $ 40/50 for 90 liters of gas, but only has a range of 450 km or even less. His fuel bills will be more expensive than mine depending on how much he drives and by default his car uses more gas in any situation than mine.

[SVT666]

You don't see the poin because you have never experienced cheap gas.

[sportyaccordy]

The fuel economy is only one aspect. Engine capacity taxation is another. Anything above 2-liters will be classified in a hefty tax class.

3.7-l V6 = 74 ?  / month

5.4-l V8 = 108 ?  / month

This is such a retarded system. The idea that Europeans only buy small displacement cars "because that is all they need" is a lie.

[sportyaccordy]

Fuel is expensive here, but what can we do?

Don't you guys elect your officials? Why would you elect or re-elect anyone who supports such crazy taxation? What are you guys getting in return?

Please tell me you guys at least have free healthcare and higher education.

[mzziaz]

Don't you guys elect your officials? Why would you elect or re-elect anyone who supports such crazy taxation? What are you guys getting in return?

Please tell me you guys at least have free healthcare and higher education.

A clear majority of the European citizens are willing to pay higher taxes than stateside in exchange for better public services.

I am one of them.

Systems vary through the continent, but both health care and higher education tends to be free or at least heavily subsidized.

[cawimmer430]

You don't see the poin because you have never experienced cheap gas.

I have experienced cheap gas prices. I lived in the Philippines when I was younger and I learned to drive there. Gas was dirt cheap there.

Back then I had a 1992 Mitsubishi Galant GTI 2.0 DOHC 16V (VR4 non-turbo and FWD) with a 145-hp. Boy that thing sucked down gas like there was no tomorrow. For a 2.0 N/A 4-cylinder car and 5-speed M/T and my held-back driving style the average fuel consumption was anything between 13 and 17 L / 100 km and the gas tank was 50 L. Even with cheap gas prices there, refueling was a pain. I simply hate stopping frequently to refuel.

And when my father bought an SUV, which he needed to reach business locations in area outside of Manila where the roads were crap, he bought a Mitsubishi Pajero with a 2.5-l turbodiesel engine. There was an optional gasoline 3.5-l V6 but he didn't want it because it was thirsty as hell. Could he afford it? Sure. Did he want to pay for frequent fill-ups despite cheap gas prices? No.

Even if gas was cheap here, I wouldn't buy a gas-guzzling car. Long range and fuel economy are appealing to me in any car.

[cawimmer430]

This is such a retarded system. The idea that Europeans only buy small displacement cars "because that is all they need" is a lie.

Tell me, if you lived in the city and did most of your driving there, what would you get?

A) Ford Excursion 6.8 V10
B) Ford Fiesta 1.6

Let me guess. You would take the Ford Excursion because gas is cheap and because there is no engine capacity tax, right? 


That's how most Europeans think. They buy a car based on their needs. If they're going to do most of their driving in the city, a smaller car is better than a bigger car. If they're going to do a lot of long-distance driving then a diesel car is better than a gasoline car, but this depends on the individual. I would prefer a diesel car for long distance driving simply because I can get more range out of one and have to stop less for gas.

Small cars are also more PRACTICAL in a European city. Today I had to go downtown to deliver some stuff with my car. This was the only parking spot free in the park garage. I kid you not but I wouldn't be able to park here with my dads E350 CGI. It was to tight. And if I managed to park, I couldn't open my doors because an E-Class is a wide car. I was standing near the snout of the cars across from where I parked when I took this photo. The Volvo XC90 guy sure did a great parking job - but let's see him get out.



^Big cars are not appealing because of this for example.^

And small cars generally come with smaller engines.

Don't you guys elect your officials? Why would you elect or re-elect anyone who supports such crazy taxation? What are you guys getting in return?

Please tell me you guys at least have free healthcare and higher education.

Look what mzziaz said:

A clear majority of the European citizens are willing to pay higher taxes than stateside in exchange for better public services.


This is why.

We pay high taxes but in exchange we have great public services and high living standards and affordable health care. That's far more important than the type of engine under my hood.

[SVT666]

We have high living standards and "free" health care in Canada and our taxes are much lower than yours...and so is our debt.

[sportyaccordy]

It shouldnt be the gov'ts job to dictate what car you can + can't buy. If an Excursion uses 5x as much gas as a Uno 1.0, then you will pay 5x as much for fuel and fuel taxes. Why does the gov't have to add more taxes + penalties on top of that? Do they think people would be buying M5s instead of 520s?

Plus super high taxes on consumption hurt poor people the most. The whole system sounds very retarded.

[TurboDan]

A clear majority of the European citizens are willing to pay higher taxes than stateside in exchange for better public services.

I am one of them.

Systems vary through the continent, but both health care and higher education tends to be free or at least heavily subsidized.

In your first sentence, you acknowledged paying high taxes. Then in the second sentence, you say the services funded by those taxes are "free," meaning you do not pay anything for them. It's cool, lots of Americans think the same way.

[TurboDan]

Tell me, if you lived in the city and did most of your driving there, what would you get?

A) Ford Excursion 6.8 V10
B) Ford Fiesta 1.6

Very few Americans drive something as inefficient as a Ford Excursion. They don't even make them anymore because nobody was buying them. Nor do they make Hummers anymore. It was a fad that is long dead and buried.

At the same time, Americans don't drive tiny little "toy cars" en masse because they're not forced into them via overtaxation. Nobody except people who live in urban areas (most of American is NOT urban by any means) would find such small cars practical in the least. Few European would either, if they weren't financially punished for purchasing a more reasonable vehicle.

Let me guess. You would take the Ford Excursion because gas is cheap and because there is no engine capacity tax, right? 

As I said, nobody bought Excursions, so they don't make them anymore. So no. The LR2 tests my limits in terms of vehicle size, actually.

They buy a car based on their needs.

So do Americans. Except we're actually free to truly buy the car that fits our needs, rather than the maximum that the government will allow us to buy to avoid insane taxes on something as ridiculous as engine displacement. If Europeans didn't have to deal with the taxes, they'd certainly buy different vehicles. Not saying large SUVs, but something different than unreasonably small-engine cars that many do.

Small cars are also more PRACTICAL in a European city.

On that, we agree. But you shouldn't be punished with higher taxes just because you don't choose to live in a city where a small car is most practical. Again, it's an example of government trying to control one's lifestyle, which is patently wrong.

[mzziaz]

In your first sentence, you acknowledged paying high taxes. Then in the second sentence, you say the services funded by those taxes are "free," meaning you do not pay anything for them. It's cool, lots of Americans think the same way.

Bah, I just used sporty's terminology.

[Raza]

It will have to be a dynamic monster, come with a 1.3l twin charged diesel, and have praises heaped on it by EVO and TopGear

As is, HELL NO

The Boss got four stars.

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/275110/ford_mustang_boss_302_review.html

[Raza]

SVO's achilles heel was that gas was cheaper than piss (and the turbo engine wasn't even that efficient)

New 4 pot Rustang will def have to break new grounds in efficiency & low curb weights to stand a chance in Europe.

True, but as I recall, the SVO was faster and better handling than the GT of the time. 

[SVT666]

The Boss got four stars.

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/275110/ford_mustang_boss_302_review.html

Their review of the Boss sounds like they drove a completely different car than what every other magazine drove.  They said the suspension was too soft and there was almost no grip from the rear tires.  That's the opposite of what every other magazine said.

[Raza]

Their review of the Boss sounds like they drove a completely different car than what every other magazine drove.  They said the suspension was too soft and there was almost no grip from the rear tires.  That's the opposite of what every other magazine said.

I didn't read the review, just saw the star rating.  But Evo is notoriously Eurocentric--like most British publications. 

[cawimmer430]

Very few Americans drive something as inefficient as a Ford Excursion. They don't even make them anymore because nobody was buying them. Nor do they make Hummers anymore. It was a fad that is long dead and buried.

I like using the Excursion in my examples. 

So do Americans. Except we're actually free to truly buy the car that fits our needs, rather than the maximum that the government will allow us to buy to avoid insane taxes on something as ridiculous as engine displacement. If Europeans didn't have to deal with the taxes, they'd certainly buy different vehicles. Not saying large SUVs, but something different than unreasonably small-engine cars that many do.

It's also a question of perception.

When an American magazine reviews say a Mercedes E220 CDI, they'll be all over it bitching on how "underpowered" and "slow" it is and how it needs a 350-hp V6 bla bla. A European magazine on the other hand would praise its performance and acceleration and the gas mileage it gives. To Americans it's slow, to Europeans it's not.

So when someone buys a 150-hp VW Passat 2.0 TDI here, the performance may very well be more than sufficient for him. He's not lusting after something more powerful or thirstier since he's happy with the power. I'm happy with the performance of my 143-hp BMW 118i. Do I want a 130i? No. Would I buy one of I had the cash? No. If I were forced to select a 1er of my choice I'd go for a 118d.

At the end of the day it's a question of priorities. There are tons of people here who can afford a gas-guzzling car but they value fuel economy and thus will avoid thirsty vehicles. The average European household has two cars. Many people might have a practical and efficient family car and a sort of weekend fun car that's sportier and uses more gas.

On that, we agree. But you shouldn't be punished with higher taxes just because you don't choose to live in a city where a small car is most practical. Again, it's an example of government trying to control one's lifestyle, which is patently wrong.

Our fuel prices were actually relatively cheap prior to the 1973 oil crisis. In the '50s and '60s a liter of fuel cost a few Pfennigs in Germany: cheap gas. After the oil crisis many governments of Europe decided to tax the stuff because it was all imported. Putting a tax on it would ensure that most people would opt for economical cars and those that didn't would purchase expensive gas. It was a governmental reaction to the oil crisis and that brought us the expensive fuel tax. The oil crisis nearly crippled Western Europe.

And the result? The vast majority of car-owning Europeans drive efficient cars. America is 5% of the world's population yet consumes 24% of the worlds oil. The wastefulness of American society is well-documented by...well...prominent AMERICAN CRITICS. Source: Paul Ehrlich and the Population Bomb

Link: http://www.mindfully.org/Sustainability/Americans-Consume-24percent.htm


A fuel tax ensures that people will be RESPONSIBLE with the cars they buy and not WASTEFUL. You can buy a Ford F-650 in Europe, but be prepared to pay the high fuel costs. And if anyone buys a thirsty car, they can certainly afford to pay the fuel bills and couldn't be bothered about them in the first place. If they were, they'd be puttering along in some econobox.

Also, the few European nations that are self-sufficient in oil (the UK and Norway) have offshore oil rigs that supply their country and parts of Europe with oil. And yet the fuel prices in both countries are as expensive as any other European nation.

[SVT666]

Our point is that government should not be forcing you to drive small powerless shitboxes if you don't want to.