bmw - you gotta pay to play

[veeman]

my brother in law 3 years ago bought a new convertible bmw 3 series with almost all the options checked.  Bought some extended warranty bs as well.  Price was @ 50 grand.  If the car detects something is wrong, the car calls the dealer and makes an appointment.  kid you not.  car also tells the dealer what percentage of time driver is wearing seatbelt (big brother gone amuck).

3 years later brother in law has a wife and a young child.  Car is very well taken care of, not a scratch, and has < 40,000 miles on the odometer.

a month ago some engine light came on and car made appointment.  bmw technician plugs in car ($170) and states some thing needs to be replaced (brother in law didn't tell me - $300).  Car is out of warranty and extended warranty bs doesn't cover it (surprise surprise).

two weeks ago brother in law spends $1000+ on two new rear tires (car came with run flats which are constantly out of alignment) and routine servicing (i think it was a recommended 35,000 mile service where technicians pay lip service to checking all the fluids, etc.)

one week ago, check engine light comes on and car makes appointment.  this is where it gets funny.  brother in law flips out at the dealership:

"i'm not paying $170 for you to plug in your stupid machine into my car.  can i talk to the manager"
"sir, how can i help you?"
"one week ago, just one week ago, i paid over a grand and everything was fine.  every time i drive this freaking car, in the back of my mind, i'm afraid a little light will come on draining my wallet.  in the last two months, i've driven this car maybe 10 times, and a light has come on 3 times.  what the f__k is the matter with this car.  you mean to tell me that everything is fine one week ago, the car is garaged for a week, and i turn it on, and i gotta pay 170 dollars for you to see whats wrong with my car.  i'm not paying it."
"sir, we have to plug in the machine to see why the red light came on." 
"i'm not paying because i paid over a grand one week ago"
"we are not supposed to but I will waive the fee this time"

technician plugs in machine and car needs to have some software module upgraded - cost $300)
"what???  you're going to charge me 300 bucks to have something upgraded! this is a software issue.  this is a defect.  why am i being charged for it?"
"sir, software is not covered by your warranty"
"let's say i give you back my bmw and i pick out any bmw in this entire lot of yours.  any single one with less than 40,000 miles on it.  do you expect that every 10 times I drive it, a check engine light will come on 3 times and i gotta shell out 170 dollars plus whatever else every time.  don't you think that's ridiculous."
"i don't expect that sir."
"my dad's lexus (its a lexus es - basically a fancy camry) has 100,000 miles on it and nothing ever goes wrong with it.  nothing.  he gets the oil changed at walmart.  in 6 years he's had the tires changed and the battery replaced.  that's it.  i can't drive my car for 1 month without something going wrong with it.  why do my tires need realignment every time i bring it in.  you know, bmw's drive great but you, I mean bmw, shouldn't put all this electronic wizbang stuff in there unless its reliable.  total rip off."

i'm sitting in the background trying my hardest not to laugh out loud.  my brother in law's face is red and the manager's face is red.  what can he say?  they end up waiving the $300 but say they can no longer waive any other out of warranty costs for him no matter what. 

on the way home, i'm listening to my brother in law rant. 

"dude...  all i can say is you gotta pay to play"

[SVT666]

He's lucky.  If your BMW breaks down where I live, there is a two week waiting list to get your car in for the $170 computer scan.

[TurboDan]

You don't have to pay to play. You just go to an honest independent mechanic instead of a stealership that will charge you a fortune for a BS "recommended service."

Shit, for my Passat there was a "recommended service" every 10,000 miles. I would've bought the car about three times over if I actually fell for that trick. Pretty sure the LR2 is the same way. Maintenance costs should NOT be higher on a BMW than any other car (maybe slightly higher priced parts, but that's about it). The issue is that dishonest dealerships assume that because you drive a BMW, you're willing and able to pay for outrageous extras that are not needed in any way, shape or form.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Yup, my car is officially out of warranty so I will not be taking it back to the Audi dealership anymore. Although I hope the independent shops can do a good carbon cleaning of my engine every now and then, because when the Audi dealership did it last it seriously worked miracles.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Why does BMW insist upon putting runflats on its cars in the first place, by the way? They are clearly worse, cost more, and just plain suck. Put a god damn donut in the trunk if keeping weight down and trunk space up is so important!!!!

When I get a BMW in some years, I will not be happy to have to put an actual spare with a real tire in my trunk, because I don't believe I will be willing to put up with those shitty tires.

As I have learned with my Audi, tires can make a big difference in the way your car rides and handles.

[850CSi]

When I get a BMW in some years, I will not be happy to have to put an actual spare with a real tire in my trunk, because I don't believe I will be willing to put up with those shitty tires.

Yeah this is what I'm doing now and it stinks

[Madman]

It's over-complicated crap like this that makes me question ever buying a car newer than the ones I have now.  I'd like to find the person who invented the "Check Engine" light (AKA, the "Spend More Money" light) and punch him in the face.  Hard.

And the CAR books the service appointment without your knowledge or consent?  WTF!?!  That alone makes me never want to buy a BMW.  And that's a pity because I used to like BMWs.

[sportyaccordy]

Why does BMW insist upon putting runflats on its cars in the first place, by the way? They are clearly worse, cost more, and just plain suck. Put a god damn donut in the trunk if keeping weight down and trunk space up is so important!!!!

When I get a BMW in some years, I will not be happy to have to put an actual spare with a real tire in my trunk, because I don't believe I will be willing to put up with those shitty tires.

As I have learned with my Audi, tires can make a big difference in the way your car rides and handles.

Spares, even donuts, take up a lot of space, and weight (though I bet the added rotational mass cancels out the weight)

Me personally, I have got one flat in about... 50,000 miles of driving? I will take my chances w/AAA and that spray fix a flat shit.

[CJ]

A spare weighs...what, 30 lbs? A jack and tools weighs another 10-15. Every vehicle needs a spare tire.

[cawimmer430]

Did your brother-in-law get a 335i by any chance? Those are known to have issues, especially with the turbos and the motor I believe.

I'm amazed the dealership charges $ 170 just for them to stick a cable into your cars computer to verify the problem. Here in Europe you visit the dealership and they will charge you by the hour and the cost of the part that was replaced. If nothing was replaced, you just end up paying the amount of minutes or hours the technician(s) has worked on your car.

Never have I (or my dad at the Mercedes dealer) been charged for a diagnostic. In fact a diagnostic is basically free-of-charge here. I bring in the car, they hook it up to the computer and if everything is fine I can leave without paying a cent.


I'm glad I have a simple BMW. Nothing to break in it. I did have an ignition coil issue that was replaced under warranty by BMW Mobile Services and my whole steering system had to be replaced (under warranty). The ignition coil and steering system defects are apparently common to the E87 1-Series range, especially the 116i and 118i models.

[sportyaccordy]

A spare weighs...what, 30 lbs? A jack and tools weighs another 10-15. Every vehicle needs a spare tire.

Thats damn near 2% of the avg car weight. And more importantly, people don't get flats as often as they used to. Plus as much of a pain as it is, AAA is pretty cheap, and no less of a pain than changing a tire unless you're in the middle of nowhere.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/business/la-fi-autos-spare-tires-20110620

[GoCougs]

It's over-complicated crap like this that makes me question ever buying a car newer than the ones I have now.  I'd like to find the person who invented the "Check Engine" light (AKA, the "Spend More Money" light) and punch him in the face.  Hard.

And the CAR books the service appointment without your knowledge or consent?  WTF!?!  That alone makes me never want to buy a BMW.  And that's a pity because I used to like BMWs.

Despite all their technology, in general new cars are VASTLY more reliable and longer lived than older cars (without said technology).

And, uh, the "check engine" light was your government at work (OBD-II). Even so, there is no conspiracy really - when it comes on something needs to be addressed.

[GoCougs]

Did your brother-in-law get a 335i by any chance? Those are known to have issues, especially with the turbos and the motor I believe.

I'm amazed the dealership charges $ 170 just for them to stick a cable into your cars computer to verify the problem. Here in Europe you visit the dealership and they will charge you by the hour and the cost of the part that was replaced. If nothing was replaced, you just end up paying the amount of minutes or hours the technician(s) has worked on your car.

Never have I (or my dad at the Mercedes dealer) been charged for a diagnostic. In fact a diagnostic is basically free-of-charge here. I bring in the car, they hook it up to the computer and if everything is fine I can leave without paying a cent.


I'm glad I have a simple BMW. Nothing to break in it. I did have an ignition coil issue that was replaced under warranty by BMW Mobile Services and my whole steering system had to be replaced (under warranty). The ignition coil and steering system defects are apparently common to the E87 1-Series range, especially the 116i and 118i models.

Diagnostic fee for out-of-warranty cars is common here; thing is if there is service or repair needed the fee is usually applied to the repair.

Laymen don't understand that "diagnostics" on an OBD-II car isn't simply hooking up the scanner; getting the code is only a small part of a proper root cause diagnosis.

[TurboDan]

I'm amazed the dealership charges $ 170 just for them to stick a cable into your cars computer to verify the problem. Here in Europe you visit the dealership and they will charge you by the hour and the cost of the part that was replaced. If nothing was replaced, you just end up paying the amount of minutes or hours the technician(s) has worked on your car.

Never have I (or my dad at the Mercedes dealer) been charged for a diagnostic. In fact a diagnostic is basically free-of-charge here. I bring in the car, they hook it up to the computer and if everything is fine I can leave without paying a cent.

Like I said, in the U.S., dealerships which sell luxury cars overcharge for everything. They charge by the hour, but if something takes 10 minutes, they'll still charge you a full hour. Why? Because obviously if you own a BMW, Mercedes or whatever else, you're very rich and can afford to be ripped off - a total lie since the average luxury car owner is NOT what I'd consider rich. The absolute worst part of luxury car ownership in the U.S. is dealing with the car dealers and their outrageous service departments. They are arrogant, have piss poor attitudes and they will rip you off at every turn if you don't watch them like a hawk and/or go somewhere else for your car repairs.

A Land Rover dealer (while I was looking at cars) advised me windshield wipers were $200 for my LR2. When I told them they were nuts, they assured me this was part of the cost of "certified" LR windshield wipers. Funny that Walmart sells wipers that fit my car for $20.

I had a Land Rover dealer tell me a few weeks ago that it would cost over $800 just to run wiring for a boat trailer hitch because "this is an advanced vehicle and we have to rewire the whole car, take off the bumper, etc." I contacted an indy Land Rover shop (owned by an LR master mechanic who used to work at the same dealership) and he said it was BS. Told me he'd order an aftermarket wiring harness and it'd take about a 1/2 hour to install. Total cost $159.

[Cobra93]

Why does BMW insist upon putting runflats on its cars in the first place, by the way? They are clearly worse, cost more, and just plain suck. Put a god damn donut in the trunk if keeping weight down and trunk space up is so important!!!!

According to my dealer, it saves them money when they don't have to send free roadside assistance if you have a flat. They wouldn't even sell me regular tires for the Mini.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

A spare weighs...what, 30 lbs? A jack and tools weighs another 10-15. Every vehicle needs a spare tire.

YUP! My G8 has a damn tire repair and compressor thing in the trunk. I'll willing to bet it weighs more than a doughnut.........

[Eye of the Tiger]

YUP! My G8 has a damn tire repair and compressor thing in the trunk. I'll willing to bet it weighs more than a doughnut.........

Those things weigh about 3 lbs.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Thats damn near 2% of the avg car weight. And more importantly, people don't get flats as often as they used to. Plus as much of a pain as it is, AAA is pretty cheap, and no less of a pain than changing a tire unless you're in the middle of nowhere.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/business/la-fi-autos-spare-tires-20110620

A donut weighs nowhere near 30 lbs, and I can change a tire far faster than it would take for AAA to even show up.

I got a flat tire two weeks in a row last year. Didn't need AAA either time.

Good tires make far more of a difference than 30 lbs. of spare tire in your trunk would make, and as I said, donuts are nowhere near 30 lbs.

That said, I do like having a full-size spare (which probably is ~25 lbs.). And I seriously doubt you would be able to feel the benefit of your car having 30 fewer lbs on it (that's like a regular person's leg).

[sportyaccordy]

A donut weighs nowhere near 30 lbs, and I can change a tire far faster than it would take for AAA to even show up.

I got a flat tire two weeks in a row last year. Didn't need AAA either time.

Good tires make far more of a difference than 30 lbs. of spare tire in your trunk would make, and as I said, donuts are nowhere near 30 lbs.

That said, I do like having a full-size spare (which probably is ~25 lbs.). And I seriously doubt you would be able to feel the benefit of your car having 30 fewer lbs on it (that's like a regular person's leg).

A regular wheel/tire is a good 40lbs. They have weights on IL's "suspension walkarounds". A donut is not half the size. They are prob at least 25lbs. And then there are all the associated tools.

The security of a spare is nice, but not necessary.

[SJ_GTI]

Like I said, in the U.S., dealerships which sell luxury cars overcharge for everything. They charge by the hour, but if something takes 10 minutes, they'll still charge you a full hour. Why? Because obviously if you own a BMW, Mercedes or whatever else, you're very rich and can afford to be ripped off - a total lie since the average luxury car owner is NOT what I'd consider rich. The absolute worst part of luxury car ownership in the U.S. is dealing with the car dealers and their outrageous service departments. They are arrogant, have piss poor attitudes and they will rip you off at every turn if you don't watch them like a hawk and/or go somewhere else for your car repairs.

I think you might be exagerating a bit. I have never had a problem with Audi dealers. The service people go out of their way to make sure I am happy with their service. they aren't arrogant nor are their attitudes piss poor. Out of all the customer service I receive, the best is probably from the dealer's service department. Its almost embarrassing to me, as a joe schmoe, evertthing they do. It probably helps that my car is under warranty, but I take it there for normal service as well. Its a little more expensive, but I like having the free car for the day while they work on it, plus it seems like a good time for them to fix any other small issues that come up (usually recall parts).

And FWIW, but dad works at a mechanic shop (the owner/head mechanic is my dad's best friend for like ~40 years, my dad is god father to his kids and I have known him since as long as I have been alive) and even with that I still have no problem going to a dealer. Now, once its out of warranty I will certainly be less likely to go to the dealer...but for routine stuff I probably still would. Every Audi service department I have been to (Montreal, NJ, and Toronto) has been almost identical in their service. My impression is that Audi's service is not particularly unique in this regard, as Lexus and Mercedez are generally considered the kings of customer service.

[2o6]

It's over-complicated crap like this that makes me question ever buying a car newer than the ones I have now.  I'd like to find the person who invented the "Check Engine" light (AKA, the "Spend More Money" light) and punch him in the face.  Hard.

That's stupid.

[Madman]

Thats damn near 2% of the avg car weight. And more importantly, people don't get flats as often as they used to. Plus as much of a pain as it is, AAA is pretty cheap, and no less of a pain than changing a tire unless you're in the middle of nowhere.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/business/la-fi-autos-spare-tires-20110620

YUP! My G8 has a damn tire repair and compressor thing in the trunk. I'll willing to bet it weighs more than a doughnut.........

Reading these posts made me think the time is right for continental kits to make a comeback........

[CALL_911]

[MexicoCityM3]

This is utter exaggeration in my opinion.

a. You are not a "slave" to the appointment the car makes, it is a convenience feature. Don?t like it just don?t go or cancel it.

b. The extended warranty "bs" if not provided directly by BMWNA has nothing to do with them. It is likely provided by a third party.

c. Any car with about 40,000 miles may have some issues. Go bore yourself to death in the Lexus. Who cares?

Finally, studies have shown that the most important criteria for a man?s competitiveness and sense of self-worth are how he does professionally compared to his brothers in law and the husband(s) of his wife?s sister(s).

Thus, great pleasure derived by the OP in mocking his brothers in law BMW here. Sorry.

[Madman]

What I'm talking about is an aftermarket spare tyre kit you can affix to your car.  Back in the 1950s, you could get continental kits for almost any type of car, presumably to make more trunk space.  Imagine seeing new BMWs cruising down the road with neatly integrated continental-style spares mounted on the back!

Something like this, perhaps?




I think I see a golden business opportunity to market something like this! 

[CALL_911]

What I'm talking about is an aftermarket spare tyre kit you can affix to your car.  Back in the 1950s, you could get continental kits for almost any type of car, presumably to make more trunk space.  Imagine seeing new BMWs cruising down the road with neatly integrated continental-style spares mounted on the back!

Something like this, perhaps?




I think I see a golden business opportunity to market something like this! 

Conceptually, it's the same as the "hump" found on some SUVs.

[sportyaccordy]

I think I see a golden business opportunity to market something like this! 

O god that is so hideous I laughed out loud (no offense!)

Plus people need access to their trunk way more often than they need a spare, so this would be somewhat of a nuisance

I bet the % of people who never even need a spare is pretty high. I don't think my mom has ever got a flat in over 20 yrs of driving.

[Madman]

O god that is so hideous I laughed out loud (no offense!)

Plus people need access to their trunk way more often than they need a spare, so this would be somewhat of a nuisance

I bet the % of people who never even need a spare is pretty high. I don't think my mom has ever got a flat in over 20 yrs of driving.

Maybe mount the spare on a swing arm that can be moved out of the way for access to the trunk?

Something like this......

[sportyaccordy]

That works for a Jeep, but a sedan?

I wish I could get a stat on # of flat tires per mile driven. I'm sure its very low, prob 1 per 100,000

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Those things weigh about 3 lbs.

It's not the little compressors that you buy at Wally World! The fixture fills the WHOLE area where the spare should be.