New Interceptor Utility

[Catman]

I disagree. There is a certain benefit in a degree of intimidation in law enforcement. "Presence" is the first level of force and it prevents force escalation more than anything else. In the extreme, someone in a less-than-amicable encounter with an officer believing that the officer has the ability to whoop his ass if the situation comes to that, for example, is likely to prevent that person from trying it. Levels of "intimidation" vary from there, but do have a use in gaining compliance. So, intimidation is a viable law enforcement tool, as distasteful as it may sound to the average citizen.

Command presence is a much better term.

[Catman]

Obviously, you could take it to an extreme, and I'm not saying that's where it should go. But, even when dealing with the average citizen, "officer presence" can be a very good thing. The same things that can intimidate a criminal can make a citizen or victim feel a degree of professionalism, surity, and competence about the officer with whom they're dealing. A good example is how "put together" an officer appears in uniform. Officers who appear slovenly about their uniform upkeep tend to have more poor encounters with criminals and give a feeling of incompetence to victims. "Officer presence" (what some people view as "intimidation") is a multi-faceted aspect of the job.

Great post man. I will hire you.

[Catman]

Bing, is this your Chief? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl9f3h0hrE8&feature=related

[rohan]

Must be nice. Our cruiser rotation/replacement cycle went out the window years ago when our chief won a free cruiser two years in a row out of a What's Holding You Back seatbelt campaign and returned the money already allocated for cruiser replacement instead of replacing two (and we were already waaaaay behind on cruiser replacement). Now the city council doesn't want to pony up the money and my chief always under-budgets for replacement costs. We still officially have a 2001 CVPI with a rotater lightbar in the cruiser rotation. We're assigned to cruisers, but that changes just about every year depending on shift assignments and when we get new cruisers the old guys always have to have them, relegating the younger guys to always driving the broken down trash. Needless to say, I'm not impressed with our cruiser situation...

Apparently your department doesn't have - use or understand Risk Management.  Our insurance carrier won't even cover a patrol or detective or staff car older then 6 years- period.  And it's not going to be much of a fight all the next chief has to do is have the IACP send their report on replacement schedules vs maintenance vs liability and he presents it as a data point presentation.  There is a ton of information available to help with this fight - but you have to have a new chief who is willing to actually do the leg work and stand up for his department.  There is a lot of information available on the levels of liability vs the quality/maintenance of your fleet. 

Police cars shouldn't be 'intimidating'. You're not the fucking Stasi.

ugh.   

You need to get out from under your mom's teet for awhile. 

[rohan]

I disagree. There is a certain benefit in a degree of intimidation in law enforcement. "Presence" is the first level of force and it prevents force escalation more than anything else. In the extreme, someone in a less-than-amicable encounter with an officer believing that the officer has the ability to whoop his ass if the situation comes to that, for example, is likely to prevent that person from trying it. Levels of "intimidation" vary from there, but do have a use in gaining compliance. So, intimidation is a viable law enforcement tool, as distasteful as it may sound to the average citizen.

It's also how the criminals size officers up and how they pick which officers they'll fight and which they won't = chances of going to jail are higher with an officer who looks like he knows what he's doing and has his shit together vs a soup sandwich.

[rohan]

You secretly long for the old Detroit black cars, don't you?

Our cars are black- most of them anyway. 

[bing_oh]

Bing, is this your Chief? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl9f3h0hrE8&feature=related

Hey, he has a second job! Wonder if he got city approval before he took it...

[Soup DeVille]

Our cars are black- most of them anyway. 

What about them thar helicopters?

[CALL_911]

ugh.   

You need to get out from under your mom's teet for awhile. 

He's right, you're pretty much our employee. I don't see why you people should drive anything that uses more gas than a Fiesta. Sure, I guess keep state troopers could keep a Mustang or something in the event of a high-speed chase (which would never happen, so a few would suffice), but overall, I see no reason for cops to be driving the tanks they do.

[Soup DeVille]

He's right, you're pretty much our employee. I don't see why you people should drive anything that uses more gas than a Fiesta. Sure, I guess keep state troopers could keep a Mustang or something in the event of a high-speed chase (which would never happen, so a few would suffice), but overall, I see no reason for cops to be driving the tanks they do.

I'd actually like to see thm driving Smarts or old Reliant Robins. I also think they should pull a trash trailer around and pickup litter during their lunch breaks.

Also, they should have tracking devices on all their cars that continually update their position and post it to a public website (they can charge a monthly fee for access)

We should also take away all their guns and issue them night sticks made out of licorice.

[CALL_911]

I'd actually like to see thm driving Smarts or old Reliant Robins. I also think they should pull a trash trailer around and pickup litter during their lunch breaks.

Also, they should have tracking devices on all their cars that continually update their position and post it to a public website (they can charge a monthly fee for access)

We should also take away all their guns and issue them night sticks made out of licorice.

Admittedly, I'm not very knowledgeable about LE, but tell me why they should be driving around in CVs, Chargers, and Tahoes?

[Soup DeVille]

Admittedly, I'm not very knowledgeable about LE, but tell me why they should be driving around in CVs, Chargers, and Tahoes?

The Tahoes and other SUVs are relatively rare, at least around here, and usually reserved for special units like K9 or traffic enforcement (full of cones and barricades).

Having a full-size sedan makes sense though. Unlike Europe, where vehicle duties tend to be more specialized, a LE officer here typically has to do a lot of different stuff with minimal support. Having room to haul around "guests" in the back seat is required, as is having extra equipment on hand from road flares to riot gear. Not to mention the computer terminal in amodern squad car takes up a great deal of space.

[2o6]

The Tahoes and other SUVs are relatively rare, at least around here, and usually reserved for special units like K9 or traffic enforcement (full of cones and barricades).

Having a full-size sedan makes sense though. Unlike Europe, where vehicle duties tend to be more specialized, a LE officer here typically has to do a lot of different stuff with minimal support. Having room to haul around "guests" in the back seat is required, as is having extra equipment on hand from road flares to riot gear. Not to mention the computer terminal in amodern squad car takes up a great deal of space.

Plus the intimidation factor, I thinknis quite legitimate.


Besides, in Germany they use the 5-series...that car is give or take the sane size as the crown victoria...

[CALL_911]

I stand corrected, then.

That said, I've seen more Tahoes than any other car used for LE duty upstate. Our campus PD rolls around exclusively in Durangos. That means whenever I see a last gen Durango on the road, I think twice.

[Soup DeVille]

I stand corrected, then.

That said, I've seen more Tahoes than any other car used for LE duty upstate. Our campus PD rolls around exclusively in Durangos. That means whenever I see a last gen Durango on the road, I think twice.

Well, around here they're the exception, not the norm. They're not uncommon, but still greatly outnumbered by the sedans.

[Laconian]

In France they drive dorky little diesel Peugeots and Renaults. Makes for shitty chase scenes in movies.

[MX793]

The Tahoes and other SUVs are relatively rare, at least around here, and usually reserved for special units like K9 or traffic enforcement (full of cones and barricades).

Having a full-size sedan makes sense though. Unlike Europe, where vehicle duties tend to be more specialized, a LE officer here typically has to do a lot of different stuff with minimal support. Having room to haul around "guests" in the back seat is required, as is having extra equipment on hand from road flares to riot gear. Not to mention the computer terminal in amodern squad car takes up a great deal of space.

Not to mention that, should they need to pull a PIT maneuver, they need something with enough mass to muscle another car around.  Preferably without causing irreparable damage to the police car.  I'd like to see a Fiesta force a Camry or Taurus off the road.

[AutobahnSHO]

Admittedly, I'm not very knowledgeable about LE, but tell me why they should be driving around in CVs, Chargers, and Tahoes?

Because they do more than just safely drive from point A to point B without hitting anything??

If our police drove around in little econoboxes ANYONE would be able to get away. What would be the point of paying police and buying them cars if they weren't able to even reasonably hope to do any sort of law enforcement ??

[bing_oh]

The cruiser is, essentially, my mobile office. I have to have everything I need for any given situation in that car (and LE gets into a huge variety of situations, only some of them law enforcement related). Cones, flares, measurement equipment, and a big ass broom for crashes? Check! Fire extinguisher? Check! Stopsticks? Check! Evidence collection supplies and equipment? Check! Entry tools? Check! All my needed paperwork, computer, and radios? Check! Various tools for whatever situation I might find myself in? Check! Various pieces of life saving equipment? Check! Shotgun and rifle in a secure rack? Check! Plus about a thousand other little things.

Now, you have to pack all of that into a car, plus 200+ lbs of cop, and make it comfortable enough where we can drive around for an 8+ hour shift, not to mention accelerating and maneuvering all that stuff at high speeds in response to things like emergency calls (which are much more common than high speed pursuits). Now, CALL_911, you really think that some econobox Fiesta can handle that?

[bing_oh]

Apparently your department doesn't have - use or understand Risk Management.  Our insurance carrier won't even cover a patrol or detective or staff car older then 6 years- period.  And it's not going to be much of a fight all the next chief has to do is have the IACP send their report on replacement schedules vs maintenance vs liability and he presents it as a data point presentation.  There is a ton of information available to help with this fight - but you have to have a new chief who is willing to actually do the leg work and stand up for his department.  There is a lot of information available on the levels of liability vs the quality/maintenance of your fleet.

"Risk management" is a foreign term around my department. I'm, frankly, rather shocked that there hasn't been a huge shitstorm involving the term "failure to train and equip" yet. That my department runs as well as it does speaks highly regarding the effort and abilities of most of the patrol guys, given the almost total lack or training and substandard/missing equipment we deal with on a daily basis.

[rohan]

"Risk management" is a foreign term around my department. I'm, frankly, rather shocked that there hasn't been a huge shitstorm involving the term "failure to train and equip" yet. That my department runs as well as it does speaks highly regarding the effort and abilities of most of the patrol guys, given the almost total lack or training and substandard/missing equipment we deal with on a daily basis.

That's just incredibly stupid and your "admins" must be completely incompetant or lazy.  The #1 lawsuit is also the #1 easiest to win- Fail To Train.

Lawyer- "Officer did you receive any training on pursuits or pursuit driving in your career since the academy?"

Officer- "No."

Jury- "XXX Police Department you are hereby ordered to pay $lotsoffuckingmoneybecauseyourcommandstaffisstupid."

In a case where you only have to prove 51% to win- handing the plaintiff a 100% win is just mind numbingly ignorant and the same exact thing can be said about Fail to Equip.   4 your ignorant bosses.  I'm even more stunned that your insurance carrier allows your department to operate without a RM plan.

[rohan]

Admittedly, I'm not very knowledgeable about LE, but tell me why they should be driving around in CVs, Chargers, and Tahoes?

Our insurance carrier requires we provide only "Pursuit Package" patrol cars for general patrol and our contract also requires it.  We can have them use non-pursuit type 4x4 in foul weather beyond that we're required to use 'PP'cars- and those consist of Chargers- Impalas- Tauruses- Caprices.  Our carrier also says we can only use SUV's for non-patrol or for specialty services like K9 or SRT.  In short we use them because we have to.

[93JC]

In France they drive dorky little diesel Peugeots and Renaults. Makes for shitty chase scenes in movies.

Makes you wonder why the North American coppers "NEED" an 'intimidating' full-size car.

I still say cops here should be driving something akin to this:



Complete with the neon yellow pattern. Cop cars should stand out like a sore thumb.

[CALL_911]

Our insurance carrier requires we provide only "Pursuit Package" patrol cars for general patrol and our contract also requires it.  We can have them use non-pursuit type 4x4 in foul weather beyond that we're required to use 'PP'cars- and those consist of Chargers- Impalas- Tauruses- Caprices.  Our carrier also says we can only use SUV's for non-patrol or for specialty services like K9 or SRT.  In short we use them because we have to.

Well yeah, but "Pursuit Package" is only offered on those huge yanktanks, AFAIK. What I'm saying is, why couldn't something like a Cruze or a Dart be used for that?

[93JC]

"Because our insurance won't cover it, wah wah wah bureaucratic BS excuses blah blah blah."

[S204STi]

Makes you wonder why the North American coppers "NEED" an 'intimidating' full-size car.

I still say cops here should be driving something akin to this:



Complete with the neon yellow pattern. Cop cars should stand out like a sore thumb.

Not reading the thread FTL.  They already explained the reasons why.  LE doctrine is just different here.  And as much as I still piss and moan when I get pulled over, they're doing their job and generally taking care of jobs that most people aren't cut out to do.  Hence they could drive whatever the hell they feel the need to, IMO.  Typically their budget is determined by local tax revenue anyway, typically property tax, so I'm not sure why you're so militant about it.

[93JC]

'Cause I don't want my local taxes paying for some boat anchor piece of shit Crown Vic and the gas that goes along with it.

[Soup DeVille]

Makes you wonder why the North American coppers "NEED" an 'intimidating' full-size car.

I still say cops here should be driving something akin to this:



Complete with the neon yellow pattern. Cop cars should stand out like a sore thumb.

From everything I can tell; european gendarmes employ more of a "team" approach than the LE community here does, which means that our vehicles need to be more multipurpose.

Note for instance, the lack of push bars on that car, and there's no divider for the backseat. It leads me to believe that the normal patrol officer does not normally need to either transport prisoners or clear traffic of stalled cars.

[MX793]

"Because our insurance won't cover it, wah wah wah bureaucratic BS excuses blah blah blah."

If those smaller cars were to go through the necessary qualification to obtain "Pursuit Package" rating, then the insurance should cover it.  In the past, departments around the country used Camaros and Mustangs as high speed pursuit vehicles, so obviously other cars can obtain a "Pursuit Package" rating.  The problem is that forces don't want smaller cars, so nobody is going to bother producing one (provided modifications are needed) or spending the money to qualify one if it will never sell.

[93JC]

From everything I can tell; european gendarmes employ more of a "team" approach than the LE community here does, which means that our vehicles need to be more multipurpose.

Note for instance, the lack of push bars on that car, and there's no divider for the backseat. It leads me to believe that the normal patrol officer does not normally need to either transport prisoners or clear traffic of stalled cars.

Police cruisers don't push stalled cars out of the way, they wait for a tow truck. The cop would be liable for any damage he/she caused to the other car.

And transporting prisoners? That's what a paddywagon is for.