BMW M3: Good News and Bad News (Video Added)

[BENZ BOY15]

I think it looks great!

I've always liked the 3 series.

[sportyaccordy]

I dont care what the transmission is as long as it follows my commands and doesn't get in the way. A bad stickshift is no better than a bad automatic.

[Raza]

I dont care what the transmission is as long as it follows my commands and doesn't get in the way. A bad stickshift is no better than a bad automatic.

Yeah it is.  A bad stick doesn't make bad decisions, but automatics do. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

Exactly.

Anyone on here who thinks they're going to be able to rip off heel toe downshifts in a car like this while flying around a track is delusional.

Hi, my name is delusional, nice to meet you.

[Lebowski]

There was no E30 or E46 4 door M3. But now its arriving again and before the coupe version. Personally I prefer the sedan, I think it makes a lot more sense. There are arguably better two door sports cars than the M3 in its price range (albeit mostly two seaters). Sedans? Not so much.

I agree. I prefer the m3 sedan to the coupe.

[850CSi]

Yeah it is.  A bad stick doesn't make bad decisions, but automatics do. 

This.

[Raza]

Exactly.

Anyone on here who thinks they're going to be able to rip off heel toe downshifts in a car like this while flying around a track is delusional.

Who gives a shit about the track?  You're never going to be a pro, so you might as well have fun.

[sportyaccordy]

Yeah it is.  A bad stick doesn't make bad decisions, but automatics do. 

A bad stick can go to 3rd when you meant to go to 5th... or pop out of gear under load

And if the shift quality sucks it discourages you from flogging it. I loved the engine + sound in my Maxima, but the stickshift was horrible. Rubbery, vague engagement, bad clutch, just a waste all around.

[sportyaccordy]

Who gives a shit about the track?  You're never going to be a pro, so you might as well have fun.

Going fast + focusing on turning + braking points is fun for some... many, in fact.

[MrH]

Who gives a shit about the track?  You're never going to be a pro, so you might as well have fun.

Track is like the ultimate fun with your car

[Raza]

Track is like the ultimate fun with your car

Yes, that is fun.  But what does that have to do with .000000001 seconds faster shifting?  Race tech is developed for people whose number one directive is going faster than other people, not having fun.

[Raza]

Going fast + focusing on turning + braking points is fun for some... many, in fact.

What I mean is have fun on the track. Apparently, I'm one of like five guys here who actually drives hard on a regular basis, so obviously I care about having fun. But if giving up a manual means my inconsequential lap time at a track gets cut by half a second, I don't give a shit. I'd rather be half a second, or a second, or ten seconds slower and have more fun doing it. It's like that dancing like nobody is watching thing. I will never become a race car driver, so I might as well drive purely for my own enjoyment.

In two months, I'll be on a racetrack in a high performance car with an F1 box.  I am excited because it's an experience. But I'm more than sure that the time saved shifting wouldn't sway me from the pure fun of shifting my own gears and the overall betterness of a manual over an automatic.

[sportyaccordy]

Your definition of fun != everyone else's definition of fun

Just cause you don't like DSGs, doesn't mean they shouldn't exist

[LonghornTX]

Nah, fuck that.  That shit makes sense on a track, but in the real world, your 400hp+ car is subject to the same bullshit that every other car is.  No point in a .000001 faster shift if you're just driving around town.  But if you enjoy physically using a manual transmission, as I do, and as I imagine you and many others here do as well, it can't be replaced.  It's a Kindle; extremely capable, very impressive, but it'll never have the same feel as reading a good book. 

This

[LonghornTX]

What I mean is have fun on the track. Apparently, I'm one of like five guys here who actually drives hard on a regular basis, so obviously I care about having fun. But if giving up a manual means my inconsequential lap time at a track gets cut by half a second, I don't give a shit. I'd rather be half a second, or a second, or ten seconds slower and have more fun doing it. It's like that dancing like nobody is watching thing. I will never become a race car driver, so I might as well drive purely for my own enjoyment.

In two months, I'll be on a racetrack in a high performance car with an F1 box.  I am excited because it's an experience. But I'm more than sure that the time saved shifting wouldn't sway me from the pure fun of shifting my own gears and the overall betterness of a manual over an automatic.

This too

[MrH]

Lol. It's not .00001 seconds on the track. It would be tens of seconds. And don't act like you're the only one driving hard on the street. You had to ask the chat thread what a differential ratio was this week.

[Raza]

Your definition of fun != everyone else's definition of fun

Just cause you don't like DSGs, doesn't mean they shouldn't exist

When did I say I didn't think DSGs should exist?  I just said that I wouldn't buy one.  Strawman much? 

[Raza]

Lol. It's not .00001 seconds on the track. It would be tens of seconds. And don't act like you're the only one driving hard on the street. You had to ask the chat thread what a differential ratio was this week.

Please, we both know that just because I'm not an engineering nerd doesn't mean that I can't take a car to its limits.  And every time I say something about driving hard on the street, I have ten people shouting me down, calling it reckless, telling me that I have no talent, that I'm at best an average driver, and that driving shouldn't be fun.  So excuse me if I feel like I'm one of a few that enjoy driving.   And I didn't say I was the only one, I said I was one of five.  I mentally included you in that five, by the way.  Between that and Sporty thinking that I said I'd go back in time and murder the inventor of the DSG in his sleep so they never come into existence, reading comprehension on this board seems to suck really hard.

And okay, let's say you save a second a lap. Or ten seconds a lap.  Like I said in another post:

"I'd rather be half a second, or a second, or ten seconds slower and have more fun doing it."

And my hyperbolic shift time savings was always just that; shift time.  I didn't once allege that you'll only save a fraction of a second around a lap, nor did I ever once say that a DSG or SMG transmission is a bad choice for a track car.  Actually, I started this line of discussion by agreeing that a DSG is a great transmission for a track.  

I'm still not going to become a professional race car driver, so lap times are meaningless.  No one is out there and going to say "Hey, I know most race car drivers start from a very young age through carting, but that guy in his late twenties in the Volkswagen is the next Lewis Hamilton, I should hire him on my F1 team!"  

So what I'm saying is that yes, ACTs are faster at the track, but I don't care because automatics aren't as fun to drive, all other variables held constant.  I don't know why that's so hard for you and Sporty to grasp.

[sportyaccordy]

You agree DSG is great for the track, and 99% of street driving requires a stickshift to be enjoyable... IOW youd prob never come close to pushing something like a 450HP M3 to its limits on the street, for an extended period of time anyway

So DSG in something like the M3, or... *gasp* the GT3 makes more sense than ever, if the cars are designed to be honest + consistent in their purpose, and used as their capabilities insist. A car just as at home on the street as it is at the track... where you yourself said DSG is a good choice

I dont get how tons of horsepower, track ready tires, brakes, suspension, chassis mods all for the sole purpose of going fast (and thus cutting down lap times) make sense, but DSG which does the same is bad. You say DSG dulls enjoyment on the street, but so does a race biased suspension on rough roads, track ready tires that are troublesome in the rain and useless in the snow, an engine with a race biased powerband, and track biased brakes w/expensive pads/rotors and issues like noise and temperature compromises. A street car w/DSG would be way more enjoyable on the street than a race car w/a 3rd pedal.

[Raza]

You agree DSG is great for the track, and 99% of street driving requires a stickshift to be enjoyable... IOW youd prob never come close to pushing something like a 450HP M3 to its limits on the street, for an extended period of time anyway

I'm with you so far.  And don't forget how often I lament about cars having higher and higher limits and becoming not fun to drive under normal conditions.  So I'm with you, but I don't get how you go from here to...

So DSG in something like the M3, or... *gasp* the GT3 makes more sense than ever, if the cars are designed to be honest + consistent in their purpose, and used as their capabilities insist. A car just as at home on the street as it is at the track... where you yourself said DSG is a good choice

Here.  It's like saying "These cars aren't fun to drive under normal conditions, so you might as well get the automatic".  You just don't make any sense.

I dont get how tons of horsepower, track ready tires, brakes, suspension, chassis mods all for the sole purpose of going fast (and thus cutting down lap times) make sense, but DSG which does the same is bad. You say DSG dulls enjoyment on the street, but so does a race biased suspension on rough roads, track ready tires that are troublesome in the rain and useless in the snow, an engine with a race biased powerband, and track biased brakes w/expensive pads/rotors and issues like noise and temperature compromises. A street car w/DSG would be way more enjoyable on the street than a race car w/a 3rd pedal.

This is the fuzziest logic I've ever seen.  A fast car that handles well can't be enjoyable with a stick and a street car with an automatic is better. 

None of the things you mentioned that dull enjoyment actually do. 

By the way, my entire argument here is that I will always prefer manual transmissions because they are more fun to me and that while DSGs are good on a track, they excel at things about which I don't care.  Much like how minivans are the most efficient way to carry a lot of things and people in a relatively small package, I don't care because the thing it's best at (carrying screaming brats or shaving tenths off a lap time for a professional driver) are not applicable to me in any way.

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for you to understand or why it upsets you so much that I have different preferences than you. 

[LonghornTX]

You agree DSG is great for the track, and 99% of street driving requires a stickshift to be enjoyable... IOW youd prob never come close to pushing something like a 450HP M3 to its limits on the street, for an extended period of time anyway

So DSG in something like the M3, or... *gasp* the GT3 makes more sense than ever, if the cars are designed to be honest + consistent in their purpose, and used as their capabilities insist. A car just as at home on the street as it is at the track... where you yourself said DSG is a good choice

I dont get how tons of horsepower, track ready tires, brakes, suspension, chassis mods all for the sole purpose of going fast (and thus cutting down lap times) make sense, but DSG which does the same is bad. You say DSG dulls enjoyment on the street, but so does a race biased suspension on rough roads, track ready tires that are troublesome in the rain and useless in the snow, an engine with a race biased powerband, and track biased brakes w/expensive pads/rotors and issues like noise and temperature compromises. A street car w/DSG would be way more enjoyable on the street than a race car w/a 3rd pedal.

You have an odd sense of perspective to me. Just my opinion, but you seem to go to great logical extremes to justify your disagreement with people still wanting a MT in an ultra high performance vehicle. Believe it or not, but the things you pointed out (high performance tires, stiff suspensions, high performance brakes) only add to the experience for many people, like myself.

I live in an area with good roads, and I have access to curvy roads where I can take a car up to a pretty good clip. In that environment, I am searching for maximum gratification, involvmenet and fun, and the high performance components only allow me to push the car harder and feel more connected to the car. They don't take away from the experience on the steet. That is why the MT still makes sense for so many in cars like that...their purpose is to be an ultra high performance road car that delivers maximum excitement and involvement.

Your argument would make a lot more sense if we were talking about a stripped our car with heim joints.

[sportyaccordy]

I just don't follow the logic of a stickshift in such a fast car. If you want stickshift youre obv willing to sacrifice some outright speed for engagement. If its a pure street car you will never be able to exploit 100% of the performance w/any level of regularity. So why not be honest w/yourself and get a stickshift 328i/335i instead? What is to be gained in buying performance you will never fully exploit, AND hampering it with a stickshift?

This is not even to dump on the stick, my next car will def be stick, the point is to say cars like the M3 have reached realms of performance in which DSGs just seem more appropriate/logical. Seems like the folks actually buying the cars agree, given the takeup rates of the transmissions in these kinds of cars.

[GoCougs]

Lightening fast shifts? Perfect rev-matching downshifts? Keeping prototypical-for-these-days high strung engines on the boil? For me DSG >>>> M/T not only for performance but for driver engagement too. I'd only consider M/T where precise clutch work is needed, such as truck or off-road rig, or where it's just part-n-parcel of the experience/design (classic muscle/pony cars).

[LonghornTX]

I just don't follow the logic of a stickshift in such a fast car. If you want stickshift youre obv willing to sacrifice some outright speed for engagement. If its a pure street car you will never be able to exploit 100% of the performance w/any level of regularity. So why not be honest w/yourself and get a stickshift 328i/335i instead? What is to be gained in buying performance you will never fully exploit, AND hampering it with a stickshift?

This is not even to dump on the stick, my next car will def be stick, the point is to say cars like the M3 have reached realms of performance in which DSGs just seem more appropriate/logical. Seems like the folks actually buying the cars agree, given the takeup rates of the transmissions in these kinds of cars.

Your argument works against itself. Why buy a hi-po car that you will never be able to push to 100% on the street and saddle it with something whose only purpose is to increase numerical performance, but that saps the involement out of the car?

Be honest, what is the highest performance car you have actually driven? I feel like you are lacking a bit of perspective on this argument...I have had the good luck to be able to drive many hi-po cars, many that are available with both types of tranny in question. To me, there is no question which option I would prefer.

I can also drive a MT car pretty efficiently. I can do everything a DSG can do, just a bit slower. I have also sold these types of cars for a living and you want to know what I learned? The guys who buy these types of cars usually buy them because of their image. Sad but true. The guys who are really big enthusiasts generally lean towards the MTs, unless they are going to do trackwork on a regular basis.

[Cookie Monster]

I just don't follow the logic of a stickshift in such a fast car. If you want stickshift youre obv willing to sacrifice some outright speed for engagement. If its a pure street car you will never be able to exploit 100% of the performance w/any level of regularity. So why not be honest w/yourself and get a stickshift 328i/335i instead? What is to be gained in buying performance you will never fully exploit, AND hampering it with a stickshift?

This is not even to dump on the stick, my next car will def be stick, the point is to say cars like the M3 have reached realms of performance in which DSGs just seem more appropriate/logical. Seems like the folks actually buying the cars agree, given the takeup rates of the transmissions in these kinds of cars.

I still don't understand why you get your panties in a bunch when someone says they PREFER a stick over a DSG, even after they've repeatedly said that they acknowledge that a DSG is better on track. We get it, you don't like manuals. Stop trying to make silly arguments about why no one else should like manuals either. It's fucking tiring seeing this bullshit constantly clogging threads.

[sportyaccordy]

Whose panties are in a bunch? I thought we were just having a discussion. Not to mention, you don't want to take the convo in this direction, but this is your first reply in the thread. Whats the logic there? You dont want to participate, post to pull the convo elsewhere or keep quiet.

Longhorn I have driven a few hi po cars ranging from 700AWHP EVOs to SL55s. And my bike runs low 12s/high 11s.

You are still not following though. If you want full engagement on the street you need performance that can be accessed regularly + completely on the street... so super high performance (like this M3 will be) in the pursuit of max engagement doesn't make much sense.  Plus as you said yourself a lot of folks buying these cars are just after the image. If track days are not part of the equation and max driving engagement on the street is the goal, a 240HP 328i Sport w/some mods makes more sense than a 450HP M3

[LonghornTX]

You are still not following though. If you want full engagement on the street you need performance that can be accessed regularly + completely on the street... so super high performance (like this M3 will be) in the pursuit of max engagement doesn't make much sense.  Plus as you said yourself a lot of folks buying these cars are just after the image. If track days are not part of the equation and max driving engagement on the street is the goal, a 240HP 328i Sport w/some mods makes more sense than a 450HP M3

Your logic is pretty flawed, as has been pointed out by Raza. First, you are assuming that a 328i is designed with the same objectives that an M3 is, which it is not. You are also assuming that driving a 328i at 100% is as fun as driving an M3 at 90%. It's not. It doesn't even have an LSD, I mean come on.

I would also imagine that you probably didn't feel that comfortable driving those cars if you honestly get more enjoyment out of driving a version of a car that has over 200 less HP. I'll take the car actually designed for performance driving.

[Cookie Monster]

Whose panties are in a bunch? I thought we were just having a discussion. Not to mention, you don't want to take the convo in this direction, but this is your first reply in the thread. Whats the logic there? You dont want to participate, post to pull the convo elsewhere or keep quiet.

Longhorn I have driven a few hi po cars ranging from 700AWHP EVOs to SL55s. And my bike runs low 12s/high 11s.

You are still not following though. If you want full engagement on the street you need performance that can be accessed regularly + completely on the street... so super high performance (like this M3 will be) in the pursuit of max engagement doesn't make much sense.  Plus as you said yourself a lot of folks buying these cars are just after the image. If track days are not part of the equation and max driving engagement on the street is the goal, a 240HP 328i Sport w/some mods makes more sense than a 450HP M3

This is my first time seeing this thread and it's already cluttered up with DSG vs manual posts. I thought we've all been over this already and it's pretty clear that no one's changing their minds. The fact that you suggest buying a 328i if you want a manual M3 pretty much sums up the idiocy of your argument.

Anyways, I got to drive a DSG and it was pretty fun, I'll admit, but I still felt that something was missing by not involving my left leg, and no amount of fast shifting would make up for that. That's just how I feel and I think that wouldn't change even if the car was extremely fast.

[sportyaccordy]

Your logic is pretty flawed, as has been pointed out by Raza. First, you are assuming that a 328i is designed with the same objectives that an M3 is, which it is not. You are also assuming that driving a 328i at 100% is as fun as driving an M3 at 90%. It's not. It doesn't even have an LSD, I mean come on.

A 328i at 90% is more like an M3 at 50%. Would you say those are close in fun? And the MP4-12C uses a system to split torque that is like the 328i's. I guess that's not a fun drive either

I would also imagine that you probably didn't feel that comfortable driving those cars if you honestly get more enjoyment out of driving a version of a car that has over 200 less HP. I'll take the car actually designed for performance driving.

Discomfort w/speed???? My bike is faster than 90% of cars on the road, including the current M3, and I am getting to the point where I could go for more power... or at least a little more midrange grunt for passing. And I didn't feel "uncomfortable" in any of those cars, they were all pretty fun. But they were way more fun at 100% than 50%, and you can't push something like a 700AWHP EVO to 100% on the street regularly.

Its about picking the right tool for the job. If you want a car that will engage you and enable you to explore its limits, why would you pick a car you can't even come close to driving at 10/10ths if you're not going to take it to a track? An extra pedal won't fix that glaring problem.

[MexicoCityM3]

Sporty, the M3 is better with a manual IMO. I can totally relate to the pleasure in shifting your own gears. Who cares about the extra tenths of a second per lap? Driver ability at your typical track day makes 10,000% more difference than the gearbox. And even then, it is not a race.

Must we make every other thread into a manual vs. auto debate?