Car Shopping: What should thewizard drive?

[Raza]

SVT Focus?  Did someone say that already?  EP3 Civic Si?  I feel like I said that. 

[2o6]

I have a hard time telling the difference in refinement between an Altima of two generations ago, and a Maxima of three generations ago. Maxima's level of refinement is about the same as Altima's (Between those two generations). Obviously the next generation put the Maxima ahead of the Altima, but as SVT32V said, they're really the same basic car.


Many Maximas were offered with cloth, and Altima is a contemporary of Camry and Accord, both of which you're looking at.



Those are really nice, and are bigger than the Accord and Camry of similar price in seemingly every way. They also drive decently, and both powertrains (V6 and 4cyl) are pretty good. In fact, I would say the Altima is bigger and as nice as the Maxima.


Both are better than a Tiburon. And if you're looking at a Tiburon, look at the Eclipse and Dodge Stratus Coupe.

[2o6]

Speaking of Altimas, I just remembered how good looking that car is.

[2o6]

SVT Focus?  Did someone say that already?  EP3 Civic Si?  I feel like I said that.  

SVT Focus isn't that low maintenance. If you're looking for cushy, it's not the way to go. It also has an interference design motor; timing belt breaks it takes the top of the motor with it.


EP3s are not that cheap. Ones that are cheap are either riced out, or have salvage titles. Or they've been stolen.



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So I don't quadruple post:


There isn't a huge difference between Infinti I and Maxima.

[MX793]

SVT Focus isn't that low maintenance. If you're looking for cushy, it's not the way to go. It also has an interference design motor; timing belt breaks it takes the top of the motor with it.


EP3s are not that cheap. Ones that are cheap are either riced out, or have salvage titles. Or they've been stolen.



-------

So I don't quadruple post:


There isn't a huge difference between Infinti I and Maxima.

I don't think the EP3 had a particularly high theft rate.  One reason earlier Civic Sis were so popular with thieves was because they were popular with tuners.  The EP3 was completely different from other Civics sold in the US (meaning many parts taken from the car could not be used in other Civics), and was also not as tuner friendly as its predecessors.

That said, the very few of them that are on Ebay right now seem to indicate that going prices are north of $7K

[Madman]

Newest or lowest miles.  Pick one.

Good advice.  Don't forget condition, either.  Condition is everything.  Also, it's a really good idea to have a dealer inspect it as a condition of sale.  I did that with my Caterror and have had no worries ever since.  A hundred bucks is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

[2o6]

I don't think the EP3 had a particularly high theft rate.  One reason earlier Civic Sis were so popular with thieves was because they were popular with tuners.  The EP3 was completely different from other Civics sold in the US (meaning many parts taken from the car could not be used in other Civics), and was also not as tuner friendly as its predecessor
That said, the very few of them that are on Ebay right now seem to indicate that going prices are north of $7K

I can't find One under seven via CL and autotrader .

[Raza]

Altimas are shitty.  Not very refined, harsh, loud, and weak engine, and not the kind of comfortable that other midsizers from Toyota and Honda would be.  

I base this on the one I drove a few years ago, probably 06 or 07.

[thewizard16]

I have a hard time telling the difference in refinement between an Altima of two generations ago, and a Maxima of three generations ago. Maxima's level of refinement is about the same as Altima's (Between those two generations). Obviously the next generation put the Maxima ahead of the Altima, but as SVT32V said, they're really the same basic car.

Many Maximas were offered with cloth, and Altima is a contemporary of Camry and Accord, both of which you're looking at.

Those are really nice, and are bigger than the Accord and Camry of similar price in seemingly every way. They also drive decently, and both powertrains (V6 and 4cyl) are pretty good. In fact, I would say the Altima is bigger and as nice as the Maxima.

Both are better than a Tiburon. And if you're looking at a Tiburon, look at the Eclipse and Dodge Stratus Coupe.

I like the current gen Altima, but the previous gens feel much cheaper to me than the previous gen Maximas. The 01-02 Maximas I'm looking at are the same price window as an 02/03 Altima, but it's easier for me to find a Maxima with leather and nice features than it is an Altima, and I already know I don't like that generation of Altima overall. It drives nicely enough, but I don't love the styling, the interior, or the availability of nice ones (comfort/features are big considerations for me). So it's out, but I do understand where you're coming from.

The Stratus coupe isn't as nice (IMO) as the Tiburon (and the Tiburon isn't that impressive to begin with), but I hadn't considered the Eclipse. I don't really care for the look of the Eclipse, and I probably won't seriously look at the Tiburon, but it was a momentarily entertaining thought. We'll see though, if I do see a Tiburon that's tempting I'll be sure to check out similar Eclipses.

I'm still planning to drive both the I and the Maxima this weekend if they're still available, so I'll try to figure out what the differences are and which suits me better, but aside from some plastic wood bits and an analog clock, you're right... there isn't a lot of obvious difference between the two at first glance.

Altimas are shitty.  Not very refined, harsh, loud, and weak engine, and not the kind of comfortable that other midsizers from Toyota and Honda would be. 

I base this on the one I drove a few years ago, probably 06 or 07.

I do rather like the newest generation (more so than the last gen Camry, haven't driven the newest Camry), but I'd agree about the previous generations on refinement and comfort at the very least.

Good advice.  Don't forget condition, either.  Condition is everything.  Also, it's a really good idea to have a dealer inspect it as a condition of sale.  I did that with my Caterror and have had no worries ever since.  A hundred bucks is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

As I said earlier, I'm not worried about age too much primarily because I am shopping primarily for condition. My last car was 20 years old and had about 160,000 miles. Whatever I get will be newer and lower mileage than that, so I'm fine with that. The thing I'm looking for is good condition and comfort, and I'll keep looking until I find it rather than settle on something newer. I do intend to have things checked out by a dealer... I wish I could go shopping on weekdays when the garage I prefer is open, but no such luck.

[MX793]

I like the current gen Altima, but the previous gens feel much cheaper to me than the previous gen Maximas. The 01-02 Maximas I'm looking at are the same price window as an 02/03 Altima, but it's easier for me to find a Maxima with leather and nice features than it is an Altima, and I already know I don't like that generation of Altima overall. It drives nicely enough, but I don't love the styling, the interior, or the availability of nice ones (comfort/features are big considerations for me). So it's out, but I do understand where you're coming from.

The Stratus coupe isn't as nice (IMO) as the Tiburon (and the Tiburon isn't that impressive to begin with), but I hadn't considered the Eclipse. I don't really care for the look of the Eclipse, and I probably won't seriously look at the Tiburon, but it was a momentarily entertaining thought. We'll see though, if I do see a Tiburon that's tempting I'll be sure to check out similar Eclipses.

I'm still planning to drive both the I and the Maxima this weekend if they're still available, so I'll try to figure out what the differences are and which suits me better, but aside from some plastic wood bits and an analog clock, you're right... there isn't a lot of obvious difference between the two at first glance.
I do rather like the newest generation (more so than the last gen Camry, haven't driven the newest Camry), but I'd agree about the previous generations on refinement and comfort at the very least.
As I said earlier, I'm not worried about age too much primarily because I am shopping primarily for condition. My last car was 20 years old and had about 160,000 miles. Whatever I get will be newer and lower mileage than that, so I'm fine with that. The thing I'm looking for is good condition and comfort, and I'll keep looking until I find it rather than settle on something newer. I do intend to have things checked out by a dealer... I wish I could go shopping on weekdays when the garage I prefer is open, but no such luck.

The 3rd generation Eclipses are identical to the Stratus coupe beyond the outside skin.  The interiors are the same minus badging.

[2o6]

Wildcard

[Laconian]

I think he should try a TheIntrepid with the 3.5 HO.

[2o6]

I think he should try a TheIntrepid with the 3.5 HO.

That's actually not a horrible idea.



300M Special

[CJ]

It's actually a horrible idea. 

[cawimmer430]

Wildcard...



Class. Style. Luxury. Elegance. Total Chick Magnet. 

Let's not talk about the downsides, mainly crappy fuel economy. 

[thewizard16]

The 3rd generation Eclipses are identical to the Stratus coupe beyond the outside skin.  The interiors are the same minus badging.

Didn't know that, I don't think I've ever been in one. No Eclipse then.

That's actually not a horrible idea.

300M Special

They don't hold up near as well as their Asian counterparts, had a friend with one of those.

Wildcard...



Class. Style. Luxury. Elegance. Total Chick Magnet. 

Let's not talk about the downsides, mainly crappy fuel economy. 

I'm not even sure that thing would fit in my driveway .

[cawimmer430]

I'm not even sure that thing would fit in my driveway .

WHAT!? You live in Europe or something?   

[thewizard16]

WHAT!? You live in Europe or something?   

As far as density of houses and size of driveways go, I suppose my neighborhood is pretty comparable to Europe. Never thought about that.

[2o6]

Wizard, Stratus and Sebring coupes are Mitsubishi in drag, not the.other way aroubd

[thewizard16]

Wizard, Stratus and Sebring coupes are Mitsubishi in drag, not the.other way aroubd

I'd just forgotten they were all basically the same. I've not been in a Sebring or Eclipse that I can recall, but I have driven a couple of nicer looking Stratus coupes that friends have had and I wouldn't consider buying one.

[Madman]

Just out of curiosity, how many miles did the Camry have on it when it died?  And how much is your insurance company giving you?

Also, you said something about the other driver claiming to have injuries.  Any updates on this?  Do you think he's for real or is he just trying to fake a whiplash claim in the hopes of pocketing some extra $$$$$$?

[thewizard16]

Just out of curiosity, how many miles did the Camry have on it when it died?  And how much is your insurance company giving you?

Also, you said something about the other driver claiming to have injuries.  Any updates on this?  Do you think he's for real or is he just trying to fake a whiplash claim in the hopes of pocketing some extra $$$$$$?

Camry had ~158,000 at the time of its demise. Final insurance valuation came out to about $4000, plus registration fees, taxes, etc. No word on the middle driver's injury claim yet, but I'm pretty confident it's bogus, even his insurance company seemed a little confused about what was going on since he wasn't talking to them either except through the ambulance chaser representing him. We'll see what happens, it just annoys me when people try to pull shit like that.

[thewizard16]

Did a lot of car shopping today at a lot of different dealers and lots. Here are the impressions I came away with:

Nissan Maxima (2001, GLE): The car looks sharp, drives nicely, and has pretty good power. I was disappointed to see the corners Nissan chose to cut on the interior. All of the small sections of seating on the edges of the main inserts are vinyl, not leather, and these cheap inserts apparently split apart and peel off after enough use. I looked at several Maximas today and all but one was already splitting and peeling off, and the one that wasn't had it coming soon judging by the cracks that were forming in it. On top of falling apart, it just made the seats feel cheap, and the actual leather wasn't as nice as some of the other vehicles I looked at. All three had broken plastic pieces on the interior trim as well. So while the engine and handling seemed nice, the interior was less than meets the eye and I think I'm cutting them from my shopping list since they don't wear well over time. Disappointing, but good to know.

Toyota Camry SE (2004, V6): I only drove this car because it was blocking in the Maxima, but I was pleasantly surprised. The interior on this one wasn't anything special, but the 3.3L engine had strong power and the handling was shockingly good for a car that I know handles like a garbage barge in the LE or XLE form. The one I drove had excessively high miles, but it had held up far, far better than the Maxima and I think I'd actually consider one if the interior was a bit nicer and miles were lower. I highly doubt I'd end up buying one of these, but it drove pretty nicely and shows that the Camry can have a bit stiffer ride and handle acceptably if properly outfitted.

2006 Hyundai Sonata: Meh. Nothing wrong with this car, but nothing special either. The dash is a bit ugly, but the car itself isn't unattractive and the interior was reasonably comfortable. Not for me though.

2001 Infiniti I30: After being disappointed with the Maxima, I thought I'd give the fancy version of the Maxima a try. The interior looks virtually identical (just with a few extra touches) but did feel a bit nicer. They still used vinyl in places for some reason, but both of the ones I looked at were holding up pretty well. It drives a little smoother than the Maxima but seems a bit less aggressive in its handling. Styling is a bit geriatric but classy looking. I think I'd consider this car, but it didn't thrill me.

2005 Nissan Altima: The price was right and it drove pretty well, but it just felt a little uncomfortable/cheap after the other cars.

2008 Ford Fusion: I knew what to expect going into this test drive since I've had the Fusion as a rental and this one was very similar. It's the newest car I looked at and it's a sharp looking ride, but it's not as nice as the others. I don't think I'll consider it.

2000 Lexus ES "Platinum" edition: Last car I drove of the day and the most surprising. The handling is a bit sharper than I'd have expected, the interior shares less with the Camry than I'd have assumed (it is more differentiated inside from the Camry than the I30 was from the Maxima) and the exterior is pretty sharp looking. It had worn its miles well and if this one had been a little more affordable I might have bought it on the spot. It didn't feel quite as aggressive as the Maxima (at least comparable to the I30 though), but it was by far the best overall car that I looked at today and I think the most attractive.

Today's verdict: I won't be buying a Maxima, and I need to go to a bigger market with more selection to actually buy something I like. Most of the cars I saw today were rough around the edges and even those were hard to find. I am going to plan a trip to Dallas in the next couple weeks and hopefully that will result in a purchase. That generation ES is now on the top of the list, the I30 is still in the running, and I'll test drive a CTS, A4, and GS300 when I go to Dallas. I would have tried the GS300 today, but the one on the lot had a flat tire for some reason and I couldn't take it out.

[MX793]

Re:  vinyl on the leather seats

Very, very few cars completely upholster their seats in leather.  Most use leather only on the seating surfaces and then use vinyl everywhere else.  Some simply use better vinyl than others.

[thewizard16]

Re:  vinyl on the leather seats

Very, very few cars completely upholster their seats in leather.  Most use leather only on the seating surfaces and then use vinyl everywhere else.  Some simply use better vinyl than others.

Yeah, I talked to the dealer about that for a while. I knew most GMs, Fords, and Chryslers had made use of vinyl in place of leather on all but the central areas of the seats, but Toyota at least uses leather in the cars I've driven on the entire main seating surface, and I guess I just assumed Nissan would too. The Camry did not have vinyl on any of the surfaces you sit on, slide across, or touch (door inserts) and the armrests were leather. The Maxima was basically vinyl seating and trim with leather inserts, as was the Infiniti, but it appeared they used better vinyl since it was wearing much better. You can still feel the difference, but I suppose if I wasn't looking for it I might not have noticed. The Lexus uses leather. I was just disappointed that a more "premium" car than the Camry was using inferior seating surface materials, and that this apparently means a rattier looking interior over time.

[thewizard16]

Well, flight is booked. Off to Dallas next Saturday with the intent of driving something home.

[MrH]

Well, it's usually not vinyl anymore.  The age of cars you're looking at still used quite a bit of vinyl.  A lot of companies nowadays are getting away from PVCs for wrapping.  But even most door panels and stuff aren't real leather.  The only areas you'll really see it now (outside of really high end stuff) is on seats, and sometimes arm rests.  Everything else is either a TPO or PU skin.

Honestly though, the best polyurethane skins are close enough to leather, most people won't be able to tell a huge difference.  Leather is a little softer, but it's not a big deal.

[thewizard16]

Well, it's usually not vinyl anymore.  The age of cars you're looking at still used quite a bit of vinyl.  A lot of companies nowadays are getting away from PVCs for wrapping.  But even most door panels and stuff aren't real leather.  The only areas you'll really see it now (outside of really high end stuff) is on seats, and sometimes arm rests.  Everything else is either a TPO or PU skin.

Honestly though, the best polyurethane skins are close enough to leather, most people won't be able to tell a huge difference.  Leather is a little softer, but it's not a big deal.

The material itself (provided it looks/feels nice) doesn't bother me (I'm not quite that much of an interior snob ), but one thing that was apparently nice about the 1992 Camry was that even though that blue color was wearing off on the left side bolster and side of the seat where you slide across (after 20 years, I felt that was acceptable) it was leather underneath and there was no cracking or splitting, just un-colored soft leather. It was the same with the door panel inserts. The backs of the seats weren't leather, but whatever they were was aging well. Since the top-end Camry model was that way, I thought it was reasonable to expect a more expensive Nissan model to be that way, or for the Infiniti in the same basic class as the Lexus to at least be comparable in interior quality since both groups are the same age (~2000). It seemed even less acceptable to me that they were being outdone by a car that's 8-10 years older in material quality. Oh well, that's what's fun about car shopping, you learn a lot more about the cars in your price range. Dallas has a much broader selection so I'm looking forward to my little trip.

I'm starting to make a list of vehicles to see, provided they're still available, and so far the Lexus ES and Audi A4 are the top picks- anything else that's similar enough to those (age 1998-2002 approximately) worth considering?

[2o6]

I think the ES would stay together better.



Just don't bring back a Kia Sephia.

[MrH]

Yeah, PVC is prone to cracking.  The plasticizer in the material gets driven off by heat and UV rays.  That's how you get that nasty fogging on the inside of your windshield sometime.  That's the plasticizer on the windshield basically.  As the car ages and the plasticizer leaves the material, it becomes more brittle and cracked and breaks like what you're describing.  Nature of the beast.