No Hope Whatsoever with Lincoln After this Statement from FMC

[sportyaccordy]

The "old names evoke fear in people" angle is bullshit

Sonata was the Sonata when it was a complete piece of shit

Same with the Regal, Deville, Malibu, Impala etc. Plenty of iconic marques have been run through the ringer and resurrected... you guys are thinking through like enthusiasts and not sane normal consumers. Lot of folks buying cars now don't even remember the god awful days of the 70s and 80s, let alone the marques from within... people today have super short attention spans.

And if a marque would stop you from buying a model youre an idiot. People frothing over the ATS for example. Would you all of a sudden not "pretend internet buy it" if it were called the Cimarron? Same with the FRS, I am surprised a badge on the hood is worth thousands of dollars to otherwise reasonable folks. When I see them I can't tell them apart. Good cars are good cars and people will buy them regardless of what theyre called, case in point Hyundais.

And as far as Jags go, I am not super crazy about the exteriors, but what mainstream  big luxury sedan looks better than the XJ? S Class is simultaneously fussy and generic. 7 looks like a 3er going through a spacetime vacuum point. Same with the A8. XJ is fresh and downright handsome in SWB form. And then you get to the interior... I dont care how the car handles or performs, I could spend days in that interior. Its beautiful, its special, its just perfect.  Makes everything else feel like computers on fancy leather desks. I would love to hear what big luxury cars Raza thinks look better in or out than the XJ... only one that comes close is the Quattroporte and that is already looking long in the tooth.

[SVT666]

The "old names evoke fear in people" angle is bullshit

Sonata was the Sonata when it was a complete piece of shit

Same with the Regal, Deville, Malibu, Impala etc. Plenty of iconic marques have been run through the ringer and resurrected... you guys are thinking through like enthusiasts and not sane normal consumers. Lot of folks buying cars now don't even remember the god awful days of the 70s and 80s, let alone the marques from within... people today have super short attention spans.

And if a marque would stop you from buying a model youre an idiot. People frothing over the ATS for example. Would you all of a sudden not "pretend internet buy it" if it were called the Cimarron? Same with the FRS, I am surprised a badge on the hood is worth thousands of dollars to otherwise reasonable folks. When I see them I can't tell them apart. Good cars are good cars and people will buy them regardless of what theyre called, case in point Hyundais.

And as far as Jags go, I am not super crazy about the exteriors, but what mainstream  big luxury sedan looks better than the XJ? S Class is simultaneously fussy and generic. 7 looks like a 3er going through a spacetime vacuum point. Same with the A8. XJ is fresh and downright handsome in SWB form. And then you get to the interior... I dont care how the car handles or performs, I could spend days in that interior. Its beautiful, its special, its just perfect.  Makes everything else feel like computers on fancy leather desks. I would love to hear what big luxury cars Raza thinks look better in or out than the XJ... only one that comes close is the Quattroporte and that is already looking long in the tooth.

Sorry man, but hardly anyone knew what a "Sonata" was when it was a POS.  Everyone knew what a Cadillac Eldorado was.

[sportyaccordy]

Everyone knew/thought Hyundais were pieces of shit. The whole brand itself was bad. Same with Chevy, Ford, Cadillac, and to a lesser degree Lincoln.  Buick used to be for old folks, now they are for the young, with some of their old names, w/much success (based on sales figures). They didnt go the alphanumeric route. If what youre doing doesnt work (alphanumeric soup named rebadged Fords) you switch it up, period.

[cawimmer430]

The "old names evoke fear in people" angle is bullshit

Sonata was the Sonata when it was a complete piece of shit

Same with the Regal, Deville, Malibu, Impala etc. Plenty of iconic marques have been run through the ringer and resurrected... you guys are thinking through like enthusiasts and not sane normal consumers. Lot of folks buying cars now don't even remember the god awful days of the 70s and 80s, let alone the marques from within... people today have super short attention spans.

And if a marque would stop you from buying a model youre an idiot. People frothing over the ATS for example. Would you all of a sudden not "pretend internet buy it" if it were called the Cimarron? Same with the FRS, I am surprised a badge on the hood is worth thousands of dollars to otherwise reasonable folks. When I see them I can't tell them apart. Good cars are good cars and people will buy them regardless of what theyre called, case in point Hyundais.

[veeman]

"I don't understand why you all love it.  I suspect brand blindness.  You're all so used to Jaguars looking so effortlessly cool and classic that when they come out with something unspeakably ugly you don't know how to react other than to pretend it's still good looking.  Put a Hyundai badge on it and your preconceived notions of British style would disappear."


the xj is a very good looking car.  the flagship model of a luxury make should be a large long saloon.  i'll be surprised if you can find me a publication which pans the looks of this car.

[Atomic]

It has a certain presence like nothing else. This Jag is stately and looks better in dark colors, I think. It evokes passion and as I often say about passion is that it has a "love it" or "hate it" appeal. Not unlike the Rolls-Royce Phantom, I bet few would call it pretty. No matter a person's take on the car, I guarantee, they look. Stepping inside and experiencing the aroma of that fine leather and I bet you will not want to exit it quickly. Never driven a Jaguar, but I imagine it's an eventful drive.

I would not buy a Jaguar, but I can understand why they do...

[veeman]

It as a certain presence like nothing else. This Jag is stately and looks better in dark colors, I think. It evokes passion as I always and as I often say about passion is that it has a "love it" or "hate it" appeal. Not unlike the Rolls-Royce Phantom, I bet few would call it pretty.

completely agree.  it looks like an exotic large cat, perfectly befitting "jaguar".  a large flagship saloon shouldn't look pretty.  it should look regal which I think it pulls off perfectly especially given today's strict front end requirements regarding pedestrian safety.

now i do agree that the xk snout is too fish like.  looks weird.

[Atomic]

completely agree.  it looks like an exotic large cat, perfectly befitting "jaguar".  a large flagship saloon shouldn't look pretty.  it should look regal which I think it pulls off perfectly especially given today's strict front end requirements regarding pedestrian safety.

now i do agree that the xk snout is too fish like.  looks weird.

Thanks veeman! My iPad failed while attempting to correct my typos... This should sound better in making out point...

"It has a certain presence like nothing else. This Jag is stately and looks better in dark colors, I think. It evokes passion and as I often say about passion is that it has a "love it" or "hate it" appeal..."

That's better 

[SVT666]

I'm looking forward to the new Jag coupe that was just confirmed for production:

[Atomic]

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1078436_lincoln-to-focus-on-targeting-highest-volume-luxury-segments

UPDATED: August 19, 2012

Lincoln's next step is a compact crossover

August 18, 2012 - 4:45 pm ET

MONTEREY, Calif. -- The next step in the reinvention of Lincoln is no baby step, it's a compact crossover.

Lincoln is focusing its efforts on luxury's twin towers -- the huge and ever-expanding C segment sedan and crossover categories, usually classified by BMW's 3 series on one side and the Lexus RX on the other. And Lincoln is avoiding the really pricey niches that account for about 10 percent of luxury sales.

Here at Pebble Beach, Cadillac kept up the drum beat for the top-tier BMW-Mercedes sedan strata. It showed renderings of a concept car that will appear at a 2013 auto show, hinting at a flagship rear-driver to challenge the 7-series and S-class.

That's a class Lincoln is going to skip for the time being as it works on the fundamentals of the brand.

Indeed, depending on your definition of flagship, it sounds as though Lincoln executives are prepared to forego having a flagship indefinitely.

But do the brand's self-imposed limitations really suggest its stewards have no interest in a halo car.

"I don't think it says that," says Lincoln product development chief Scott Tobin.

"The segments are fundamentally the small, and medium premium utilities, the D-segment, and the C or C-D (sedans)," he said.

And that D-segment (Taurus-sized) car can be a full-fledged halo car, he says.

"That is kind of where I would put a car like that. The next reincarnation of that would be the next generation MKS," Tobin said. "I can see us with a D-segment flagship vehicle. I think we would have to do that. We're not ruling it out by any means. We're working on that."

But go much beyond a luxury sedan that is a cousin of the Taurus and you are into areas Lincoln can't really fool with at the moment.

"The other 10 percent is some of the really kind of niche stuff," Tobin said. "We look at that, don't get me wrong. We are always playing around with ideas. But we know we have to be competitive in those core areas, get your piece of the pie, then we'll play around with some of the other things."

And what about the compact crossover?

"That small premium utility segment is growing" said Tobin. "It's a the fastest growing segment."

So don't be surprised if two years from now at Pebble, we'll see just such a Lincoln -- using the same architecture as the Ford Escape, but with completely different sheet metal.

Still, the subject of immediate attention is the MKZ coming this fall -- the 3-series/C-class fighter that Galpin Ford megadealer Beau Boeckmann is salivating to get his hands on.

"We can't can wait to get that car out here," said Boeckmann as he looked out at an MKZ sitting a few steps from the 18th Green at Pebble Beach. "That's what we need in Los Angeles.

"I'm extremely excited about the future of Lincoln," said the Galpinizer, ultimate cool California dealer. "This an extremely capable Lincoln management team and they are playing to win rather than playing not to lose."
 

[Atomic]

^Ford Escape-based luxury marque X3 fighter? Afraid so 

[TurboDan]

^Ford Escape-based luxury marque X3 fighter? Afraid so 

Yup. They just don't get it at Lincoln.

[nickdrinkwater]

They should never have stopped making the Town Car!

[Raza]

And as far as Jags go, I am not super crazy about the exteriors, but what mainstream  big luxury sedan looks better than the XJ? S Class is simultaneously fussy and generic. 7 looks like a 3er going through a spacetime vacuum point. Same with the A8. XJ is fresh and downright handsome in SWB form. And then you get to the interior... I dont care how the car handles or performs, I could spend days in that interior. Its beautiful, its special, its just perfect.  Makes everything else feel like computers on fancy leather desks. I would love to hear what big luxury cars Raza thinks look better in or out than the XJ... only one that comes close is the Quattroporte and that is already looking long in the tooth.

The Panamera is the third best looking car in its class.

It goes:

Maserati Quattroporte
Audi A8
Porsche Panamera
Everything else except for the shit ugly Jaguar XJ
Jaguar XJ

Also, I believe the Phaeton proved that the name and badge of a car matter. 

[cawimmer430]

They should never have stopped making the Town Car!

True. Especially the lovely 1970s and 1980s versions! Those things had (and still have) SEX APPEAL. 

[TurboDan]

Also, I believe the Phaeton proved that the name and badge of a car matter. 

Yeah, that was a debacle of the ages. Especially when your brand name is "People's Car," an $80K 12-cyl borderline-chauffeur vehicle was met with more laughter than anything else.

Those things are an absolute steal now, though. I saw one at a local used car dealership with well under 100K miles going for like $14K.

[SVT666]

Also, I believe the Phaeton proved that the name and badge of a car matter. 

I think the fact that it looked exactly like a Passat didn't help much either.

[2o6]

I think the fact that it looked exactly like a Passat didn't help much either.

Also, IIRC reviews showed that it wasn't all that great of a luxury car. A8 and pretty much everything else was better.

[TurboDan]

Also, IIRC reviews showed that it wasn't all that great of a luxury car. A8 and pretty much everything else was better.

Actually, I recall the reviews of the Phaeton were pretty positive. They basically said it was the most luxurious car (and the only 12cyl car) for its price. The problem was that nobody who could afford it wanted to buy a car that looked like an awkwardly-stretched Passat. Once you get into that price range, badge most certainly matters unless it's something like a Viper or Corvette.

[sportyaccordy]

VW's attempt at an upmarket attack must have been borne out of a crack binge.

[Mustangfan2003]

I think it's time to send in John Wilks Booth

[Atomic]

Actually, I recall the reviews of the Phaeton were pretty positive. They basically said it was the most luxurious car (and the only 12cyl car) for its price. The problem was that nobody who could afford it wanted to buy a car that looked like an awkwardly-stretched Passat. Once you get into that price range, badge most certainly matters unless it's something like a Viper or Corvette.

Absolutely right. Audi? Yes. VW? No. If it looked less Passat like and more reasonable priced, maybe. And it was an outstanding car.

[Raza]

I think the fact that it looked exactly like a Passat didn't help much either.

Eh, people buy Toyotas that look like Benzes in droves just because they say Lexus.  My point still stands.

[nickdrinkwater]

The 7-Series up until 2002 looked like a 5 series and the A8 has always looked like any other Audi so it wasn't necessarily looks alone than made the Phaeton sell slowly.  Badge alone wouldn't be, either, because Hyundai sell luxury cars ok, and VW also has more H&H than new brands such as Lexus and Acura.  I think the fact that the car had no real benefits over the competition is the main reason.  The stand-out features tended to be quirky things, like new engine configurations compared to rivals.  Nice to have sure but not really offering any performance or economy benefit, just different for different's sake.  Even a price avantage wouldn't really help because the people who buy these cars can afford the running costs of any of them, I think.

That said, I don't see why the Phaeton is seen as so much of a failure, given that we don't know how many VW needed/wanted to sell.  Personally I doubt that VW expected to sell that many of them and instead hoped to break even whilst using this as a "halo" model and a way of testing the water for future endeavours.  I doubt the development costs were too high as it was heavily based on existing technology and components.

[Vinsanity]

In hindsight, it seemed like VW was quite ambitious with the Phaeton, almost to the point that critics believed that Piech was suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Whereas the Hyundai Equus seems like more of an experiment to see how high the Hyundai brand can reach in the U.S.

[SVT666]

Eh, people buy Toyotas that look like Benzes in droves just because they say Lexus.  My point still stands.

That's different.  They look like another high end car.  The Phaeton looked like a stretched $30,000 mainstream sedan.  Every time I have seen one (just 3 times, but it may have been more and I just couldn't tell) I had the same reaction, "That's a loooong Pas..oh wait, that's a Phaeton...or is it a Passat....no, it's a Phaeton".

[Mustangfan2003]

So I've read that Ford plans to bring the Lincoln brand to China, seems like a last ditch effort to save it.  It might actually do well there with the new ugly designs. 

[SVT32V]

^Ford Escape-based luxury marque X3 fighter? Afraid so 

Yup. They just don't get it at Lincoln.

Lincoln wants to be Acura with rebadged front drivers.

The RDX is a rebadged crv, no reason an escape can't be rebadged as a lincoln.

Granted it would need to be more than an emblem change, but I don't think anyone would make the claim that a navigator is a blatant rebadged expedition.

[2o6]

Q3 is a tarted up Tiburon, and everyone ignores that....

[Cookie Monster]

Q3 is a tarted up Tiburon, and everyone ignores that....

Pretty impressive, making a compact Audi SUV off of an old Hyundai coupe...