Why do you hate the Prius?

[2o6]

Because it's nice to have a new(ish) car. Not really a slippery slope - the two main impetuses to buy a Prius; environmentalism and MPG; are logical failures.

Buying a car that uses as little fuel as possible is illogical?

[sportyaccordy]

Slippery slope - why buy a new car at all, then?

Most folks (including Cougs) haven't, recently

I think the Prius is cool for what it is, but it still has some issues that I can't reconcile with

- Terrible driving dynamics
- Way too heavy
- Mediocre straight line performance w/batteries, dangerous straight line performance without
- Image
- Hypocrisy (if bought new)
- Cost

By pretty much every measure but fuel economy a lightly used Yaris or Corolla makes way more sense. If they equipped either with a CVT and start-stop tech; maybe even a mild hybrid system, there would be no need for a Yaris.

[sportyaccordy]

Buying a car that uses as little fuel as possible is illogical?

Yes, if you are buying it new

Economically it makes no sense- you can get a used Prius for far more than the difference in price over the improvements

Environmentally it makes no sense- buying a used car that is already built and into its environmental impact cycle is far more eco-friendly than calling for that same initial energy to be put into a whole new car

Cars are lasting way longer these days, makes no sense for folks to be buying new cars at old days rates

[2o6]

Why are you hung up on the no battery performance? That really only affects a handful of 1st gen models, and the 2nd and 3rd gen models don't have this problem. It's like saying a car has dangerous performance when it's only using 1/2 the engine.

Yes, if you are buying it new

Economically it makes no sense- you can get a used Prius for far more than the difference in price over the improvements

Used to new is a faulty premise. How did the new cars become used? If no one should buy a new Prius, how would we get used ones?

Environmentally it makes no sense- buying a used car that is already built and into its environmental impact cycle is far more eco-friendly than calling for that same initial energy to be put into a whole new car

No one cares about environmentalism, dammit.

Cars are lasting way longer these days, makes no sense for folks to be buying new cars at old days rates

People don't (and have no reason to) think that way.


Most people will have a 3-4 year old car they're looking to trade in. Instead of buying a newer variant of a similar car they used to drive, they consider the Prius (or any other hybrid) for the same price. They see the MPG gain plus a payment that will likely be the same as what they're doing right now. They'll take the hit in comfort (which is negilgable to most consumers) if it means a 15MPG benefit in economy.

[SVT666]

If you are buying a new car no matter what, then buying a Prius does make sense, but if you are looking to save money and gas, then buying used is the way to go.  Nobody has ever saved money by selling a used car, and buying a new car.

[2o6]

If you are buying a new car no matter what, then buying a Prius does make sense, but if you are looking to save money and gas, then buying used is the way to go.  Nobody has ever saved money by selling a used car, and buying a new car.

This.

[Raza]

Buying a car that uses as little fuel as possible is illogical?

If your goal is to change cars to save money on gas, most of the times, yes.  But if you're changing cars anyway and want something more fuel efficient, why not?  If you've got an older Camry and want to upgrade your ride and get good gas mileage, going for a Prius makes some sense.

[GoCougs]

Buying a car that uses as little fuel as possible is illogical?

Yup.

[2o6]

Yup.

Nope.

If your goal is to change cars to save money on gas, most of the times, yes.  But if you're changing cars anyway and want something more fuel efficient, why not?  If you've got an older Camry and want to upgrade your ride and get good gas mileage, going for a Prius makes some sense.

Then why do you guys lambast anyone for buying a new car that's different from the old one?

[GoCougs]

Guys, remember - the market agrees with me. The Prius outsells all other hybrids combined, and really the only hybrids that sell are Toyotas (and it's not because they're any better). The Prius carries a price premium vs. other cars, especially something like a Civic or Corolla. If you buy a Prius, you are irrational.

[SVT666]

My uncle just bought a Prius V and he's suddenly all morally superior to the rest of us now.  He gives me a hard time about driving the Infiniti and our Explorer.  One night we were all at my parents' place for dinner and he was going on about it.  So I just replied, "Look, I love myself and I love to drive.  So I bought a car I love to be in and love to drive.  You're obviously a masochist and you picked a car that fits you."  It got a good laugh from everyone including my aunt...but not him.  Thankfully, I haven't heard anything about it since.

[2o6]

Guys, remember - the market agrees with me. The Prius outsells all other hybrids combined, and really the only hybrids that sell are Toyotas (and it's not because they're any better). The Prius carries a price premium vs. other cars, especially something like a Civic or Corolla. If you buy a Prius, you are irrational.

Most people are irrational.



The Honda Hybrids suck, the GM hybrids are a Joke (save for the Volt), and the Ford ones have been unsustainable (Escape Hybrid sold pretty well for awhile there, not sure if anyone wants to migrate to the Cmax), and no one knows the Hyundai ones exist.

The Prius and kin just hit the formula right to have a successful place in the market. If another manufacturer were to introduce a similar car at the same price point with the same efficiency, they'd likely find reasonable success.

My uncle just bought a Prius V and he's suddenly all morally superior to the rest of us now.  He gives me a hard time about driving the Infiniti and our Explorer.  One night we were all at my parents' place for dinner and he was going on about it.  So I just replied, "Look, I love myself and I love to drive.  So I bought a car I love to be in and love to drive.  You're obviously a masochist and you picked a car that fits you."  It got a good laugh from everyone including my aunt...but not him.  Thankfully, I haven't heard anything about it since.

I tried to get my parents to buy a 2nd gen Prius over the Rendezvous, becuase MPG's were excellent, the price was about the same as the Rendezvous, and the driving dynamics were what they were accustomed to in a car.

[Raza]

Then why do you guys lambast anyone for buying a new car that's different from the old one?

I don't understand the question.  When do I do this?

[2o6]

I don't understand the question.  When do I do this?

Collectively, you guys do.

[Raza]

Guys, remember - the market agrees with me. The Prius outsells all other hybrids combined, and really the only hybrids that sell are Toyotas (and it's not because they're any better). The Prius carries a price premium vs. other cars, especially something like a Civic or Corolla. If you buy a Prius, you are irrational.

This is actually all true.  Although there can be multiple reasons for this:

1.  Smug factor.  There is no non-hybrid version of the Prius, therefore it cannot be confused with conventional car.
2.  Lack of knowledge.  The Prius is so famous--and infamous--that people know what it is, but may not know the alternatives.
3.  Name recognition.  The Prius is so popular, so people assume it's popular for a reason and don't look at alternatives.
4.  Ignorant/faux environmentalism.  People either don't know or don't care that a conventional gasoline engined car can be better for the environment (can circle back to point 1).

[Raza]

Collectively, you guys do.

Example?

[SVT666]

Camry - 22K and 35MPG

Prius - 24K and 50MPG

Compare it to a comparably sized car dude.  I just built two mid level cars on Toyota's website:

Corolla S with NAV = $20,800

Prius 3 with NAV = $26,600


$6000 buys a lot of gas.  50 mpg vs. 29 mpg. (combined) means it will take 10 years to break even at $4 a gallon and 12,000 miles a year.

[sportyaccordy]

2o6 I dont think anyone is saying people shouldn't buy new or buy new Priuses. Just that theres no rationale for it. Where the gripes come in is when people make an irrational decision, and then use it as grounds to appoint themselves moral authority. IOW, all the idiots who think they are better than everyone else because their brand new Prius saves money on gas and saves the environment are wrong. There is more to the cost of ownership than gas, and environmentally used beats new every time just off principle.

Then there are personal reasons which just are manifestations of people's preferences. I dont get why you feel the need to defend the Prius from people's opinions on it. You are arguing against opinions

[ifcar]

Hate is a strong word but there are plenty of reasons why the Prius (and, in fact, all hybrids) are technological dead-ends and are not a viable long term solution.

Increased complexity, increased weight, increased cost, the environmental impact caused by the manufacturing and refining of heavy metals used in hybrid batteries, the limited life expectancy of those batteries (not to mention the astronomical expense of replacing them when they do fail) and compromised performance capabilities of hybrid cars all conspire to make the Prius and their ilk a nonstarter for me.

Totally untrue. There's been no documented reduction of Prius battery life declines in the 16 years it's been sold, nor is it any more expensive to replace than any other fundamental powertrain component like a transmission in the unlikely event of a failure.

Add to that the grossly inflated mileage claims (thanks to the EPA's outdated testing rules which were never conceived with hybrids in mind) and the fact a VW Golf TDI will get better mileage in the real world (and using proven technology, to boot) and the case for hybrids suddenly evaporates.

The current EPA test protocol dates to just a couple of years ago, long after hybrids were out. The diesels do as well or better on the highway but don't come close in the city, because the Prius lets you move all-electric at low speeds. Diesel is also more expensive than gas in the U.S., often negating its extra purchase price over a gas engine. You don't have that issue in a hybrid.

[Morris Minor]

The Prius has an "I care, therefore I'm a better person" image overlay that obscures whatever virtues is has. Apple has the same problem.

[ifcar]

Compare it to a comparably sized car dude.  I just built two mid level cars on Toyota's website:

Corolla S with NAV = $20,800

Prius 3 with NAV = $26,600


$6000 buys a lot of gas.  50 mpg vs. 29 mpg. (combined) means it will take 10 years to break even at $4 a gallon and 12,000 miles a year.

False, because you'll get back part of that extra cost when you sell the cars. The extra cost to a higher-priced car doesn't just vanish when you drive off the lot. If you sell after five years, and each car is worth 50 percent of its original value, then you break even right then -- $3,000 from the gas and $3,000 from the resale. And you've had a roomier, nicer car in the meantime for zero extra money.

[2o6]

Compare it to a comparably sized car dude.  I just built two mid level cars on Toyota's website:

Corolla S with NAV = $20,800

Prius 3 with NAV = $26,600


$6000 buys a lot of gas.  50 mpg vs. 29 mpg. (combined) means it will take 10 years to break even at $4 a gallon and 12,000 miles a year.

Why should I compare it to a Corolla? Most people don't shop in static class sizes. My brother drives a Camry. He looked at everything from a Mazda 3, to a Saturn Outlook.

2o6 I dont think anyone is saying people shouldn't buy new or buy new Priuses. Just that theres no rationale for it. Where the gripes come in is when people make an irrational decision, and then use it as grounds to appoint themselves moral authority. IOW, all the idiots who think they are better than everyone else because their brand new Prius saves money on gas and saves the environment are wrong. There is more to the cost of ownership than gas, and environmentally used beats new every time just off principle.

Then there are personal reasons which just are manifestations of people's preferences. I dont get why you feel the need to defend the Prius from people's opinions on it. You are arguing against opinions

No, I'm just saying it's a fallacy to argue a theorem with missing variables, against a flimsy theorem with missing variables. People buy what they buy, and they like what they like. They do math how they do math.

If people crunched numbers like you guys do, we'd all be driving Versa sedans. Versa gets hybrid-like fuel economy, and has midsize car interior room, at a price that makes it one of the cheapest cars in America to buy. But we don't.


Do I like the Prius? Not really. And I would probably never buy one. But to say that it doesn't use less fuel and therefore can't save a consumer any money on fuel is false.

[SVT666]

False, because you'll get back part of that extra cost when you sell the cars. The extra cost to a higher-priced car doesn't just vanish when you drive off the lot. If you sell after five years, and each car is worth 50 percent of its original value, then you break even right then -- $3,000 from the gas and $3,000 from the resale. And you've had a roomier, nicer car in the meantime for zero extra money.

Break even?  So over 5 year you don't save anything then.

[2o6]

Break even?  So over 5 year you don't save anything then.

Most people don't think this way. They just know that their fuel bill is significantly smaller in the short run.

It is what it is.

The Prius has an "I care, therefore I'm a better person" image overlay that obscures whatever virtues is has. Apple has the same problem.

I agree, and I think that's some of the Volt's downfall (it doesn't have that image associated with it). I was at work, and I talked to two Volt owners. Neither had charged their cars in over six months.

[SVT666]

Why should I compare it to a Corolla? Most people don't shop in static class sizes. My brother drives a Camry. He looked at everything from a Mazda 3, to a Saturn Outlook.

Because that's what you have to compare it to to make any kind of reasonable comparison.  Otherwise, you could just substitute anything in there.  "I can prove to you that the Prius saves money.  See, compared to the Ford Explorer........"

[ifcar]

Break even?  So over 5 year you don't save anything then.

You don't save anything by buying a Corolla, either! When two cars cost the same, why is cost a downside only for one?

[SVT666]

Most people don't think this way. They just know that their fuel bill is significantly smaller in the short run.

It is what it is.

That's the point I'm making.  People don't think past the "gasoline" issue.  Fuck the extra $6000 it costs to buy the car.

[2o6]

Because that's what you have to compare it to to make any kind of reasonable comparison.  Otherwise, you could just substitute anything in there.  "I can prove to you that the Prius saves money.  See, compared to the Ford Explorer........"

That's the point I'm trying to make; people make those comparisons all the time, it's how life works. They may have owned a late-model Explorer and are looking to downsize into something cheaper to run. To say the Prius wouldn't be cheaper to run, is wrong.

[SVT666]

You don't save anything by buying a Corolla, either! When two cars cost the same, why is cost a downside only for one?

If over the 5 years, you don't save a damn thing, then what's the point?

[2o6]

That's the point I'm making.  People don't think past the "gasoline" issue.  Fuck the extra $6000 it costs to buy the car.

What if for some odd reason, they just like the car?