Lightning Lap 2013

[CJ]

You all suck equally.  There.  Now everybody can be butthurt together.  YouallsuckSPIN.

[LonghornTX]

Depends on the context. In the context of me talking about a 944 on a track vs. a contemporary RX-7 on a track (I have driven both), my opinion is useless. In the context if me talking about how much that car costs to fix, then I think I probably have more authority than most of the rest of the board. Notice that I don't do much comparing-of-dicks with other cool cars on this board, but I will say that I like my car, and it's a good car, and it's fun to drive.

And there are plenty of auto journalists with real and technical qualifications, though my main point was that working for a big mag puts a certain pressure to at least be able to back your shit up slightly.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, as I personally don't think one has to be an auto journalist (gotta be kidding me with that one) or a race engineer from a major team to know what they are talking about. And while I appreciate your lack of "dick comparing", it would probably be a losing venture using a 944, since modern cars have advanced so much (I love your car BTW, but just saying). I don't mean to "dick compare" either, as my personal car is much slower than any of the cars in question in this topic, at least for now. Rather, I just find it irritating when people, who don't bother to even gain the smallest amount of experience with the topic in question, voice their opinion in such an authoritative and abrasive tone. I have spent my entire life trying to gain as much real life experience with cars as possible, and that is something that I value, so I guess it just becomes a pet peeve of mine.

At the end of the day, I don't come here to win pissing matches, or "compare my dick" with others, though I ultimately get involved in them from time to time because of my personality. I come here to learn from others here, to round out the knowledge I gain from all of the reading that I do and the experiential activities I seek out.

[Rupert]

RE: the tires, your experience is irrelevant and Cougs isn't even trying. This is a factual argument without facts.

RE: the front end of your car or whatever, with all the stuff you and others have posted, I still don't know WTF is up with the weight savings, but I get the impression that neither do you or anyone else ITT.

RE: comparing dicks, you are clearly comparing the general Mustang dick to the general Camaro dick, and now, despite your deflection, to the 944 dick. Which is funny, because I'm pretty sure I never inserted my 944's dick into this conversation.

RE: what experience counts, yeah, a big time car journo with access to many hi-po cars and professional experience with comparing cars, talking tech, talking with engineers and designers, and defending their position to at least an editor is going to have rather a lot more authority than a guy who once sold high end cars.

[LonghornTX]

RE: the tires, your experience is irrelevant and Cougs isn't even trying. This is a factual argument without facts.

Frankly, I don't care if you think my experience is irrelevant. I am the only one here who has ever modified an S197 (including, yes, changing between multiple tires), and have a bunch of friends who do the same (some of which own these cars in question). Because I can't present some neat document, or whatever, means little to me (see above post). But I understand where you are coming from, because those auto journalists ALWAYS base their observations on factual data.

RE: the front end of your car or whatever, with all the stuff you and others have posted, I still don't know WTF is up with the weight savings, but I get the impression that neither do you or anyone else ITT.

I was never in doubt about what I posted, as that kit is something I have considered doing for some time. If you doubt their claims (not mine), you should look at the link I posted. Again, I don't really care if you, or Char, or whoever agrees with them or not. I brought it up originally as part of a sub discussion with SVT, not introduce it into the mainstream conversation.

RE: comparing dicks, you are clearly comparing the general Mustang dick to the general Camaro dick, and now, despite your deflection, to the 944 dick. Which is funny, because I'm pretty sure I never inserted my 944's dick into this conversation.

Wow, people are taking sides in a comparison of two cars on a car forum? You don't say...If that is your definition of "dick comparing", then I would imagine everyone here is guilty of that, unless of course that doesn't apply to you. And yes, you most certainly did bring your car into it, but in a different way by saying, "oh, well I don't compare my dick with others, I just say how nice and shiny it is, and how much it pleases me...". Again, I actually like the 944 a lot, so I wasn't trying to demean you or your car. I almost bought a 951 after reading a series of articles in European Car where they hopped one up, but could never find a nice one.

RE: what experience counts, yeah, a big time car journo with access to many hi-po cars and professional experience with comparing cars, talking tech, talking with engineers and designers, and defending their position to at least an editor is going to have rather a lot more authority than a guy who once sold high end cars.

Haha, I guess if you say so. Because they definitely go to a school where they gain "professional experience comparing cars". My opinion of car journalists is much lower than yours...IMO there are a handful of which I actually value their opinion, the rest provide information. You can slight my time as a car salesmen, but it allowed me to drive most of the more popular exotic cars on the market. I would say that is experience no one else here has.

[MrH]

+1 for your evaluation of the auto press.

[Rupert]

For a guy who doesn't care, that's a lot of words.

[sportyaccordy]

Cougs is very talented. He must be an excellent manager. Look at all the words + work folks like me and Longhorn give dude for free

[GoCougs]

Cougs is very talented. He must be an excellent manager. Look at all the words + work folks like me and Longhorn give dude for free

EfficiencySPIN.

[GoCougs]

The worst automotive journalist from any of the major mags has more standing (read: experience, skill) to comment on automotive performance than anyone participating ITT. (Where they fall down is on technical knowledge).

[LonghornTX]

The worst automotive journalist from any of the major mags has more standing (read: experience, skill) to comment on automotive performance than anyone participating ITT. (Where they fall down is on technical knowledge).

SillyCougsSPIN

[MrH]

Disagree. Most journalists are completely clueless. They bask in great cars and try their best to describe it as artfully and as beneficial to the mag as possible. Experienced? Yes. Skilled? Oh hell naw.

[Rich]

There are a few that are skilled at describing the driving experience.  The worst ones that just spend the entire piece listing the specs and then telling the performance numbers.  The best ones don't bother and write completely about the driving experience.  IIRC Automobile did a good job with this along with Edmund's long term blog in general and Josh Jacquoit in particular. 

[2o6]

Disagree. Most journalists are completely clueless. They bask in great cars and try their best to describe it as artfully and as beneficial to the mag as possible. Experienced? Yes. Skilled? Oh hell naw.

They always make last place sound undrivable.



I like C/D and Edmunds, but I detest Motor Trend.

[Rupert]

Crappy writing /= no experience or knowledge

[GoCougs]

Disagree. Most journalists are completely clueless. They bask in great cars and try their best to describe it as artfully and as beneficial to the mag as possible. Experienced? Yes. Skilled? Oh hell naw.

Relative to the 'SPIN and in particular ITT, the average auto journalist is WAY more skilled and experienced in driving cars. Just the simple fact that they drive dozens of cars (and as often as not, hi-po cars) a year in timed performance tests and get paid to do it and then write about it objective proof enough.

[Rupert]

Aye. Whether or not they can write about all that in a way that you like is a different story.

[MrH]

Relative to the 'SPIN and in particular ITT, the average auto journalist is WAY more skilled and experienced in driving cars. Just the simple fact that they drive dozens of cars (and as often as not, hi-po cars) a year in timed performance tests and get paid to do it and then write about it objective proof enough.

Any timed laps are done by a professional driver usually

When the journalists are on the track, they're just dickin around.

[2o6]

Relative to the 'SPIN and in particular ITT, the average auto journalist is WAY more skilled and experienced in driving cars. Just the simple fact that they drive dozens of cars (and as often as not, hi-po cars) a year in timed performance tests and get paid to do it and then write about it objective proof enough.

I'm not convinced....the average auto journalist seems to be younger, and is online (based upon explosive tidbits and instant gratification) rather than print.

[Laconian]

11 Coolest Cars You'll Never Use To Get Laid
3 Lamest Batmobiles Ever
Suzuki Forenza: First Drive, in which we find Absolutely Nothing Wrong With This Car At All! ...in fact, we didn't even drive it!...

[2o6]

11 Coolest Cars You'll Never Use To Get Laid
3 Lamest Batmobiles Ever
Suzuki Forenza: First Drive, in which we find Absolutely Nothing Wrong With This Car At All! ...in fact, we didn't even drive it!...

Their reviews are schizophrenic and flowery at the same time. And you're an idiot for not agreeing with their rankings.

[Laconian]

Their reviews are schizophrenic and flowery at the same time. And you're an idiot for not agreeing with their rankings.

It's sad that this is what journalism has become across the board. You have to dig hard to find any substance at all nowadays.

[2o6]

It's sad that this is what journalism has become across the board. You have to dig hard to find any substance at all nowadays.

I've just stopped putting stock in reviews and now I just drive the car and form my own opinion.

[LonghornTX]

Any timed laps are done by a professional driver usually

When the journalists are on the track, they're just dickin around.

And a lot of the actual performance testing (0-60, braking, skidpad, slalom, etc.) are done by a different person than the author of the article. That is pretty common in C&D.

Sorry Cougs, but I have seen enough videos of scribes trying to drive and/or sound knowledgeable about cars in general for me to have a somewhat low level of respect for the population in general. There are those out there that fit your description, but they are the exception, not the norm. And they are mostly British IMO.

[SVT666]

British accent /= credible

[LonghornTX]

British accent /= credible

No, but they seem to be the ones able to actually drive pretty good (i.e. Sutcliffe, Harris, Plato (race car driver), Needell (former race car driver), Bovingdon (C&D Abroad)), and they focus on how they drive, focusing on describing them in an understandable and entertaining way. Of course, this applies to the new breed of journalist, the one that focuses on video rather than paper.

[SVT666]

No, but they seem to be the ones able to actually drive pretty good (i.e. Sutcliffe, Harris, Plato (race car driver), Needell (former race car driver), Bovingdon (C&D Abroad)), and they focus on how they drive, focusing on describing them in an understandable and entertaining way. Of course, this applies to the new breed of journalist, the one that focuses on video rather than paper.

I can't completely agree with that.  All of those guys have biases and they don't hide them. 

[LonghornTX]

I can't completely agree with that.  All of those guys have biases and they don't hide them. 

I appreciate that. Everyone has biases when it comes to cars, why hide them?

[Raza]

No, but they seem to be the ones able to actually drive pretty good (i.e. Sutcliffe, Harris, Plato (race car driver), Needell (former race car driver), Bovingdon (C&D Abroad)), and they focus on how they drive, focusing on describing them in an understandable and entertaining way. Of course, this applies to the new breed of journalist, the one that focuses on video rather than paper.

Jethro Bovingdon?  He writes for C&D now?  Man, I remember when he was writing for Evo and was trying to get an E36 M3 around the Ring in under 8 minutes.  I wonder if he ever did. 

[SVT666]

I appreciate that. Everyone has biases when it comes to cars, why hide them?

Impartiality.  A mind that can be changed is very important in being a good automotive reviewer.

[Raza]

I can't completely agree with that.  All of those guys have biases and they don't hide them.

I think that's okay.  Everyone has biases, as long as you disclose them, you can remain credible.