Lightning Lap 2013

[Onslaught]

The ST would have been much faster, but the editors took off with the key on the roof and it got smashed into a million pieces so they only had limited run time

I did something like that right after I got the RX-8. I was driving out if my driveway and saw some fucking Canadian Geese swimming in my pond. Got out if the car and left it running and put the key on the roof. Ran the birds off and got into the car and drove 2 miles away and the car started beeping at me a a red light came up in the dash. My first thought was "your two weeks old and having a problem!?" Raced back home and walked forever before I found the key on the road. A car had run over it but somehow didn't even put a dent in the case. Works fine too.

[Raza]

I did something like that right after I got the RX-8. I was driving out if my driveway and saw some fucking Canadian Geese swimming in my pond. Got out if the car and left it running and put the key on the roof. Ran the birds off and got into the car and drove 2 miles away and the car started beeping at me a a red light came up in the dash. My first thought was "your two weeks old and having a problem!?" Raced back home and walked forever before I found the key on the road. A car had run over it but somehow didn't even put a dent in the case. Works fine too.

Oh crap, I thought he was joking. 

[Onslaught]

Oh crap, I thought he was joking.

Those fucking thin ass Mazda keys are so easy to forget or fall where you don't want them too. I have one place in the house and another in the car that my key stays all the time now. If I keep it in my pocket driving it will slip out and go under the seat every time. And with those seats in the R3 it can be a bitch to get it back out. I miss normal keys.

[r0tor]

Oh crap, I thought he was joking. 

Im not nearly creative enough to come up with that excuse.

[r0tor]

FWIW the best way to interpret a cars handling from the lightening lap comparos is on a graph of lap time vs lbs/hp.


Not sure if they updated it for this year already, but C&D had this graph on their website and nearly 80% of the cars fell on a straight line.  The outliers were the cars that were much better then average or worse then average.

[Rich]

FWIW the best way to interpret a cars handling from the lightening lap comparos is on a graph of lap time vs lbs/hp.


Not sure if they updated it for this year already, but C&D had this graph on their website and nearly 80% of the cars fell on a straight line.  The outliers were the cars that were much better then average or worse then average.

Yep, I loved oogling that graph for a few minutes.

[MrH]

FWIW the best way to interpret a cars handling from the lightening lap comparos is on a graph of lap time vs lbs/hp.


Not sure if they updated it for this year already, but C&D had this graph on their website and nearly 80% of the cars fell on a straight line.  The outliers were the cars that were much better then average or worse then average.

Oh, awesome.  I didn't know they did that.  Any links to past years?

[sportyaccordy]

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/lightning-lap-2012-plotting-performance.pdf

Interesting graph. The split of cars on the left/right side of the line is telling.

[Rich]

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/lightning-lap-2012-plotting-performance.pdf

Interesting graph. The split of cars on the left/right side of the line is telling.

Yep.  Tire sizes and compounds, and suspensions is what seems to set them apart.  Tires more than anything

[GoCougs]

In my experience tires definitely can be worth a couple of minutes on a 3 minute track, but well - it's all hypothetical. And sub-3 minute or not, the performance of this Camaro is extraordinary for the price.

Actually, it wasn't better tires it was "fresh" tires that were needed/recommended; the 1LE tester had worn tires which is a big factor. A bad shift can easily be up to a second in and of itself. It was reported previously in C&D that Chevy said they themselves tested the 1LE to a sub-3 minute lap at VIR.

The REAL story IMO of the 1LE is that it's simply not a not super stiff stripped low and volume edition like the Boss 302 LS. It's still a loaded SS (leather, nav, gauges, etc.) with some enhancement.

[SVT666]

Actually, it wasn't better tires it was "fresh" tires that were needed/recommended; the 1LE tester had worn tires which is a big factor. A bad shift can easily be up to a second in and of itself. It was reported previously in C&D that Chevy said they themselves tested the 1LE to a sub-3 minute lap at VIR.

The REAL story IMO of the 1LE is that it's simply not a not super stiff stripped low and volume edition like the Boss 302 LS. It's still a loaded SS (leather, nav, gauges, etc.) with some enhancement.

The Boss is a loaded GT Premium with the addition of suede Recaro seats. 

[MrH]

So what's the big difference between the SS and 1LE that makes it so much faster?

[GoCougs]

The Boss is a loaded GT Premium with the addition of suede Recaro seats. 

The Boss 302 gets stuffed by the 1LE. I referenced the Boss 302 LS, which is closer to the 1LE but it's super stiff and doesn't even have a back seat lol.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

So what's the big difference between the SS and 1LE that makes it so much faster?

It's all in the suspension tuning/tires! The engine is the same as the SS.

[GoCougs]

So what's the big difference between the SS and 1LE that makes it so much faster?

Shorter gearing in both the diff and tranny, bigger sway bars F&R, different shocks, different suspension bits (toe links, ball joints, various bracing, etc., from the ZL1), different springs, the Goodyear Supercar tires and (obviously) a whole bunch of tuning and testing.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Shorter gearing in both the diff and tranny, bigger sway bars F&R, different shocks, different suspension bits (toe links, ball joints, various bracing, etc., from the ZL1), different springs, the Goodyear Supercar tires and (obviously) a whole bunch of tuning and testing.

Yep but the front and rear tires are the same size unlike the stagger tires on the ZL1.

[LonghornTX]

The Boss 302 gets stuffed by the 1LE. I referenced the Boss 302 LS, which is closer to the 1LE but it's super stiff and doesn't even have a back seat lol.

Around this track, but the BOSS is also faster in a straight line and looks and sounds infinitely better. I also wouldn't describe either BOSS as super stiff, having driven both.

[LonghornTX]

The Boss 302 gets stuffed by the 1LE. I referenced the Boss 302 LS, which is closer to the 1LE but it's super stiff and doesn't even have a back seat lol.

You do realize the only thing that is "stripped" about the laguna seca is its rear seat being replaced by a sweet looking brace. Otherwise it has all the features of a normal mustang

[LonghornTX]

Yep.  Tire sizes and compounds, and suspensions is what seems to set them apart.  Tires more than anything

Tires are everything on a track

[Onslaught]

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/lightning-lap-2012-plotting-performance.pdf

Interesting graph. The split of cars on the left/right side of the line is telling.

Fuck, I can't read this.

[SVT666]

The Boss 302 gets stuffed by the 1LE. I referenced the Boss 302 LS, which is closer to the 1LE but it's super stiff and doesn't even have a back seat lol.

The Laguna Seca is a Boss 302 with a rear seat delete and added crossbrace in place of it.  There are a few track oriented additions, but otherwise it's the same car with all the same options.

[GoCougs]

Tires are everything on a track

Not really. Engineering a hi-po car is a holistic top-to-bottom design - chassis (stiffness, polar moment of inertia, weight balance, etc.) + suspension (geometry, unsprung weight, spring tuning (progression profile, rate), etc.) + tires (contact patch, sidewall stiffness, grip, etc.), and then of course all of that analyzed/tested/tuned as whole. Otherwise hi-po cars would simply come from the factory with really stiff springs, huge sway bars, wide wheels, and mega sticky low profile meats.

[GoCougs]

The Laguna Seca is a Boss 302 with a rear seat delete and added crossbrace in place of it.  There are a few track oriented additions, but otherwise it's the same car with all the same options.

You do realize the only thing that is "stripped" about the laguna seca is its rear seat being replaced by a sweet looking brace. Otherwise it has all the features of a normal mustang

A car with a base MSRP of $49,950 with a removed back seat, no nav, no leather, and by way of further Googlism, only the base amenities of the $22,000 version of the car (base stereo, no dual zone climate, no fog lights) is most definitely stripped.

[SVT666]

A car with a base MSRP of $49,950 with a removed back seat, no nav, no leather, and by way of further Googlism, only the base amenities of the $22,000 version of the car (base stereo, no dual zone climate, no fog lights) is most definitely stripped.

Nah.  Stripped is what my 1996 Mustang GT was.  It had A/C.  That's it.  No cruise control, no ABS, no traction control, no power seats. No power windows, power locks, or even power mirrors.  Nothing but A/C.  That's stripped.

[sportyaccordy]

Not really. Engineering a hi-po car is a holistic top-to-bottom design - chassis (stiffness, polar moment of inertia, weight balance, etc.) + suspension (geometry, unsprung weight, spring tuning (progression profile, rate), etc.) + tires (contact patch, sidewall stiffness, grip, etc.), and then of course all of that analyzed/tested/tuned as whole. Otherwise hi-po cars would simply come from the factory with really stiff springs, huge sway bars, wide wheels, and mega sticky low profile meats.

The margin of error on all that shit is much higher than the wrong rubber... what good is all that shit if you don't have the rubber to utilize it?

On the flip side, good tires will make an MKZ slalom faster than an M5. Obviously there's more to that than a fast lap time, but assuming everything works (brakes dont burn up, transmission is obedient), tires are huge

A car with a base MSRP of $49,950 with a removed back seat, no nav, no leather, and by way of further Googlism, only the base amenities of the $22,000 version of the car (base stereo, no dual zone climate, no fog lights) is most definitely stripped.

All its missing from a base GT is the rear seat, what other than that has it been stripped of?

[LonghornTX]

Not really. Engineering a hi-po car is a holistic top-to-bottom design - chassis (stiffness, polar moment of inertia, weight balance, etc.) + suspension (geometry, unsprung weight, spring tuning (progression profile, rate), etc.) + tires (contact patch, sidewall stiffness, grip, etc.), and then of course all of that analyzed/tested/tuned as whole. Otherwise hi-po cars would simply come from the factory with really stiff springs, huge sway bars, wide wheels, and mega sticky low profile meats.

Yes really. Tires are by far the single most impactful variable of a car's performance on a track, all other things being equal. Mainly because they affect so many different things (confidence, cornering, braking, traction, etc.). If you have ever tuned a car for the track, you would know that. Yes, of course, you will not take a car that is very poorly engineered in other ways and make it a track star simply by slapping on additional rubber, but good rubber (and lots of width) will hide a great many things.

Having 285 width tires all around most certainly does a whole lot for the handling of Camaro SS, more so than any of the other handling changes they made to the car.

[LonghornTX]

The margin of error on all that shit is much higher than the wrong rubber... what good is all that shit if you don't have the rubber to utilize it?

On the flip side, good tires will make an MKZ slalom faster than an M5. Obviously there's more to that than a fast lap time, but assuming everything works (brakes dont burn up, transmission is obedient), tires are huge
All its missing from a base GT is the rear seat, what other than that has it been stripped of?

That article about Edmunds is hilarious to me. Them bitching about the car performing well because it was equipped with a factory performance option is one of the reasons I don't bother reading their articles. Do your research Edmunds, this stuff is available on Lincoln's website.

[GoCougs]

Yes really. Tires are by far the single most impactful variable of a car's performance on a track, all other things being equal. Mainly because they affect so many different things (confidence, cornering, braking, traction, etc.). If you have ever tuned a car for the track, you would know that. Yes, of course, you will not take a car that is very poorly engineered in other ways and make it a track star simply by slapping on additional rubber, but good rubber (and lots of width) will hide a great many things.

Having 285 width tires all around most certainly does a whole lot for the handling of Camaro SS, more so than any of the other handling changes they made to the car.

Again, not really. Put 20" 285 Sport Cups at all four corners of the base Camaro SS and watch it not do a whole lot better, in addition to probably picking up some undesirable handling traits. Again, if it was mostly tires, that's probably what GM would have done for for the 1LE trim package. It's about holistic automotive engineering not bolting on stuff from out of a catalog.

[LonghornTX]

Again, not really. Put 20" 285 Sport Cups at all four corners of the base Camaro SS and watch it not do a whole lot better, in addition to probably picking up some undesirable handling traits. Again, if it was mostly tires, that's probably what GM would have done for for the 1LE trim package. It's about holistic automotive engineering not bolting on stuff from out of a catalog.

Your hypothetical example proves my point even more. No doubt, you need a ton of pieces to be tuned for a car to handle just right, but you can certainly cut down lap times in a hurry by putting on a lot of rubber that is of a high quality, especially on a car that already has a lot of power and a decent suspension. All of the other changes they made to the 1LE wouldn't do much without increased mechanical grip. Stiffer springs and sway bars allow you to take advantage of the increased mechanical grip provided by wider, stickier tires. Having a square setup on a track is ideal, especially when you can run so much rubber on the front end. That allows you a lot more freedom in how you tune the car.

But, I can't imagine you have ever actually driven on a track, much less tuned a car for a track, now have you?

[hotrodalex]

Stiffer springs and sway bars allow you to take advantage of the increased mechanical grip provided by wider, stickier tires.

Wider, stickier tires allow you to take advantage of the handling characteristics produced by suspension tuning.

Stick less grippy tires on a good handling car and it's still going to handle well. Track times start with getting the right set up and are only aided by grippy tires that allow you to push limits.