C7 Corvette

[MrH]

The best track ever made is the worst thing to happen to cars. You know, I would have thought it would have been something like mass transit or global warming...

[12,000 RPM]

Craig's wording was off, but yea, the fetishizing of lap times around a track most Americans will never experience by drivers with skills most Americans will never come close to having has shifted the focus of development of many important drivers cars in the wrong direction. What winding American road can someone do average speeds of 90-110MPH (avg speeds of "respectable" Ring times) on legally + on a regular basis? Most American ROAD COURSES aren't that fast. Again I love the Ring, I race around it a good 2-3 times a day on Forza 4, but lap times around it are about as relevant as MT's "Figure 8" scores for a daily driver on American roads.

[GoCougs]

How can people keep clinging to this "'Ring = bad" premise?!

Corvette ZR1, Camaro ZL1, Lexus LFA, GT-R, 911, F458, M3, etc., etc., etc., are in all ways vastly superior to their predecessors and simply couldn't be built any better, under any premise or conditions. This is mostly all due to testing and resulting feedback loops, which includes (usually in small part IMO) time on the 'Ring and other road courses.

[MrH]

Craig's wording was off, but yea, the fetishizing of lap times around a track most Americans will never experience by drivers with skills most Americans will never come close to having has shifted the focus of development of many important drivers cars in the wrong direction. What winding American road can someone do average speeds of 90-110MPH (avg speeds of "respectable" Ring times) on legally + on a regular basis? Most American ROAD COURSES aren't that fast. Again I love the Ring, I race around it a good 2-3 times a day on Forza 4, but lap times around it are about as relevant as MT's "Figure 8" scores for a daily driver on American roads.

Lol what do you want them to test and tune with then? Do you not want them to test the car at all?

[12,000 RPM]

Who said anything about testing being bad? Cmon guys.

[MrH]

What's your solution then? If the Nurburgring is a bad idea, offer up something better.  I'm all ears...

[12,000 RPM]

Again, nobody said testing at the Nurburgring is bad... but the obsession with ring times by people who will prob never go to a race track is pretty silly. As is the equating of ring times with driving fun

[MrH]

Again, nobody said testing at the Nurburgring is bad... but the obsession with ring times by people who will prob never go to a race track is pretty silly. As is the equating of ring times with driving fun

I never once equated ring times with fun. SVT said the ring was the worst thing to happen to cars. If its the worst thing to happen to cars, surely it can't be a good idea to test there...

[12,000 RPM]

I'm pretty sure he meant the overprioritization of ring times by buyers and manufacturers, not the whole idea of cars on the Ring period. Using the ring to make a car better on the road and more fun to drive vs tuning a car to be as fast as possible on the ring are not the same thing. If it were the Radical SR8 would be an awesome road car (hint: it isn't)

[Catman]

Entertainment-wise I think Ring times for these types of cars is cool.  For me, it's just curiosity.  If I was to buy a C7 I wouldn't be too concerned over how fast it is.  We know its plenty fast. 

[MrH]

I'm pretty sure he meant the overprioritization of ring times by buyers and manufacturers, not the whole idea of cars on the Ring period. Using the ring to make a car better on the road and more fun to drive vs tuning a car to be as fast as possible on the ring are not the same thing. If it were the Radical SR8 would be an awesome road car (hint: it isn't)

So the Ring isn't the worst thing to happen to cars, but rather people valuing the ring time over fun instead?  Who's doing that?  Why aren't those people the worst thing to happen to cars then, not the ring itself?

That's like saying publishing 0-60 times is ruining cars because that means they no longer car about cars being fun.  No, it's not a one-or-the-other kind of situation at all.  It's just a metric to try and measure performance.

And yes, the Radical SR8 would be fun as hell to drive on the street.

[12,000 RPM]

So the Ring isn't the worst thing to happen to cars, but rather people valuing the ring time over fun instead?  Who's doing that?  Why aren't those people the worst thing to happen to cars then, not the ring itself?

That's like saying publishing 0-60 times is ruining cars because that means they no longer car about cars being fun.  No, it's not a one-or-the-other kind of situation at all.  It's just a metric to try and measure performance.

And yes, the Radical SR8 would be fun as hell to drive on the street.

Its like you are missing what I am saying on purpose :ugh:

Acceleration times are a great example. Cougs for example said he would like the FR-S only if it managed less than a 15.0 in the quarter mile People rationalize the disengagement of the driver through technologies like DSGs in drivers cars by claims of "how much faster they shift". "I picked DSG because it will enable me to maintain more control under braking at the end of a straight of a race track I will never take my car to".

And an SR8 would literally be a pain in the ass on the street... the Ring is not glass smooth but it's definitely better than the street. Plus again the Ring is a very high speed track... you prob know better than anyone how w/analog suspensions you "can't have it all". If an SR8 is tuned to maximize grip at 120, 130, 150 MPH it's going to ride like ass at street speeds, which will erode performance, which detracts from enjoyability.

Im not saying (and never said ) we shouldn't tune or measure cars' performance; I am just questioning the value of the fetishizing and obsession with said performance figures and the context and roads these cars are being designed for.

[Tave]

I'm pretty sure he meant the overprioritization of ring times by buyers and manufacturers, not the whole idea of cars on the Ring period. Using the ring to make a car better on the road and more fun to drive vs tuning a car to be as fast as possible on the ring are not the same thing. If it were the Radical SR8 would be an awesome road car (hint: it isn't)

I thought the whole point of the Ring is that it's impossible to tune for given the sheer scope of the course and myriad of different challenges it poses to drivers? In effect you're tuning the car to do everything well.

[SVT666]

Its like you are missing what I am saying on purpose :ugh:

He is, which is why I left the conversation.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I thought the whole point of the Ring is that it's impossible to tune for given the sheer scope of the course and myriad of different challenges it poses to drivers? In effect you're tuning the car to do everything well.

Various types of corners(banked, decreasing/increasing radius, flat, off camber) coupled with low speed setions and fast sweeping sections would test ALL the abilities of a car. That is the main reason the ring is the goto spot for automotive testing. That and I imagine there is some consistency for comparisons to other automakers.

[MrH]

I thought the whole point of the Ring is that it's impossible to tune for given the sheer scope of the course and myriad of different challenges it poses to drivers? In effect you're tuning the car to do everything well.

Various types of corners(banked, decreasing/increasing radius, flat, off camber) coupled with low speed setions and fast sweeping sections would test ALL the abilities of a car. That is the main reason the ring is the goto spot for automotive testing. That and I imagine there is some consistency for comparisons to other automakers.

It's not even silky, race track smooth everywhere either.  It's a track where there's just about every road condition combined. 

[Raza]

I'm not so sure James May is right on this one myself.  I remember when the 997 came out, Porsche stated that it was faster around the Ring on the normal suspension setting and not sport, because the Ring was so bumpy, they were losing time on sport.  It probably is the race track analogue closest to real life roads.  But as with anything else, too much focus on any one thing at the detriment of another is a problem.  Whether it's the Ring or soft touch plastics or whatever, it's all about balance. 

[SVT666]

I'm not so sure James May is right on this one myself.  I remember when the 997 came out, Porsche stated that it was faster around the Ring on the normal suspension setting and not sport, because the Ring was so bumpy, they were losing time on sport.  It probably is the race track analogue closest to real life roads.  But as with anything else, too much focus on any one thing at the detriment of another is a problem.  Whether it's the Ring or soft touch plastics or whatever, it's all about balance.

The Viper ACR is nothing short of teeth rattling on public roads and it's the fastest production car around the Ring.

[12,000 RPM]

It's not even silky, race track smooth everywhere either.  It's a track where there's just about every road condition combined.

Except road speeds under 60 MPH. You know, like 85% of street driving... even "spirited" street driving on winding roads.

The Viper ACR is nothing short of teeth rattling on public roads and it's the fastest production car around the Ring.

Yep. Again... tuning for max grip at 150 MPH is pretty much at odds with tuning for confidence at 50 MPH. By the decree of the Ring, a Renault Megane RS is a better car than an NSX-R. It's one of many metrics that sometimes yields interesting insights but not much else.

[GoCougs]

How is 'RingRAGE even still an issue here? The more performance automakers have focused on it (and its analog) the better performance cars have gotten.

[S204STi]

Lol what do you want them to test and tune with then? Do you not want them to test the car at all?

[S204STi]

Arguing against a benchmark is idiotic.  It's like public school teachers who rail against standards because they consistently fail to live up to them.

[Raza]

Lol what do you want them to test and tune with then? Do you not want them to test the car at all?

That's how TVR did it. Worked for them (sort of).

[MrH]

Except road speeds under 60 MPH. You know, like 85% of street driving... even "spirited" street driving on winding roads.
Yep. Again... tuning for max grip at 150 MPH is pretty much at odds with tuning for confidence at 50 MPH. By the decree of the Ring, a Renault Megane RS is a better car than an NSX-R. It's one of many metrics that sometimes yields interesting insights but not much else.

A viper is barely moving at 60 mph.  You seem to have misdirected rage at fast cars more than anything.

[S204STi]

Pretty much that.  Remember guys, 200hp is enough for any enthusiast.

[SVT666]

Pretty much that.  Remember guys, 200hp is enough for any enthusiast.

Nobody said that.

[Catman]

Everyone shut up, just shut up. 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Everyone shut up, just shut up. 

Lock this bitch down, throw some of that mod power around and show these kids who's boss.

[12,000 RPM]

A viper is barely moving at 60 mph.  You seem to have misdirected rage at fast cars more than anything.

Naw but thanks for the projection. Ring is just one road, it is hardly a place representative of normal or even track driving for the avg dude. Since we are projecting it seems like you have a mindless hard on for the Ring. See how stupid that sounds

Nobody said that.

I did when the BRZ came out. There have been plenty of great cars (E30 M3, ITR, Silvia Turbo, Clio RS etc etc) that have had 200 HP and been great. BFRZ's big problem is more the torque curve than the HP.

But yea, while 200HP might not be enough, I dont think its unfair to say 900HP is too much.

[MrH]

Naw but thanks for the projection. Ring is just one road, it is hardly a place representative of normal or even track driving for the avg dude. Since we are projecting it seems like you have a mindless hard on for the Ring. See how stupid that sounds
I did when the BRZ came out. There have been plenty of great cars (E30 M3, ITR, Silvia Turbo, Clio RS etc etc) that have had 200 HP and been great. BFRZ's big problem is more the torque curve than the HP.

But yea, while 200HP might not be enough, I dont think its unfair to say 900HP is too much.

So 200 HP is too little, and 900 HP is too much...

So you're like Goldilocks, and a 5-cylinder rabbit is jusssssst right.  Got it dude

How can you say how great those cars are, and the BRZ isn't, when you haven't driven them?!