The G-spot

[Madman]

The Focus RS will absolutely have 4-doors. 

Absolutely is correct.  There is no two-door derivative of the current Focus on sale anywhere in the world.

[Cookie Monster]

The GTI is a vastly better car than the ST and I expect the same advantage for the Golf R. Also, far too ricey looking and I'm not even sure if it will have 4 doors (which is a requirement).

It's only been shown as a 4 door. In fact, there is no 2/3 door version of the Focus, anywhere. Why would you think the RS would be a 2/3 door?

[68_427]

It's only been shown as a 4 door. In fact, there is no 2/3 door version of the Focus, anywhere. Why would you think the RS would be a 2/3 door?

BEcause he doesn't want a Ford. 

[GoCougs]

Whenever I search "Focus RS" the vast majority of what pops up are 2-door cars.

[MX793]

Whenever I search "Focus RS" the vast majority of what pops up are 2-door cars.

The old RS was , IIRC, 2 door only.  Ford no longer makes a 2-door Focus.  The new RS will be a 4-door hatch.

[12,000 RPM]

Wat would it take to bring the poser class up to satisfactory snuff? I'm thinking about all the models in the class and I'm kind of struggling to think of what would get me excited about one. I think my pick of the segment is the IS350, though I would like it more with two blowers and a 7MT. But as far as excitement... excitement? There's no ground left to cover. G35 got us out of the realm of 1989 SHO horsepower. E90 3 brought us big turbo engines. F30 bumped the class up to 5 series size (for better or worse- I say better). NA is over unfortunately and high power NA in this segment isn't competitive in street performance for this class. What's left? All I can see is maybe fringe players stepping up their design. The ATS should have been a lot sexier. IS could have been a little less weird. Etc. etc.

[MexicoCityM3]

Wat would it take to bring the poser class up to satisfactory snuff? I'm thinking about all the models in the class and I'm kind of struggling to think of what would get me excited about one. I think my pick of the segment is the IS350, though I would like it more with two blowers and a 7MT. But as far as excitement... excitement? There's no ground left to cover. G35 got us out of the realm of 1989 SHO horsepower. E90 3 brought us big turbo engines. F30 bumped the class up to 5 series size (for better or worse- I say better). NA is over unfortunately and high power NA in this segment isn't competitive in street performance for this class. What's left? All I can see is maybe fringe players stepping up their design. The ATS should have been a lot sexier. IS could have been a little less weird. Etc. etc.

F30 LCI will get a plug-in hybrid option by next year it'll be at dealers. It will be a 4 turbo + electric.

[hotrodalex]

How could the ATS be any more sexy?

[TBR]

Wat would it take to bring the poser class up to satisfactory snuff? I'm thinking about all the models in the class and I'm kind of struggling to think of what would get me excited about one. I think my pick of the segment is the IS350, though I would like it more with two blowers and a 7MT. But as far as excitement... excitement? There's no ground left to cover. G35 got us out of the realm of 1989 SHO horsepower. E90 3 brought us big turbo engines. F30 bumped the class up to 5 series size (for better or worse- I say better). NA is over unfortunately and high power NA in this segment isn't competitive in street performance for this class. What's left? All I can see is maybe fringe players stepping up their design. The ATS should have been a lot sexier. IS could have been a little less weird. Etc. etc.

The G is responsible for the size increase too...I believe the first generation G35 was significantly larger than the cars it competed with. First generation CTS too, but that didn't move in the same volume the G did.

Seems pretty clear to me that the cars in the class are the best they have ever been and the perceived lack of excitement is because they are pretty similar and quite good. This wasn't true 10-15 years ago when everyone was doing everything a little different and each car had a list of caveats (but the Cadillac is bigger, the Infiniti is faster, the Mercedes is more luxurious, the Lexus is the best driver, the Saab looks better, etc, etc).

[Cookie Monster]

How could the ATS be any more sexy?

Seriously, that thing is a looker. I'm just sad it doesn't sell better (or is a crappy car, IDK).

[12,000 RPM]

I find the ATS to be hella boring. Slab sided, boring proportions etc. The new CTS is the same. The old CTS looked better than both... the aggressive fender bolsters, the swoopy roofline etc etc. What happened to the designers who did the Imaj, Elmiraj etc. Only the Germans can get away with boring derivative design.

[hotrodalex]

First gen CTS (and CTS-V) was yucky and cheap.

[12,000 RPM]

It was also Cadillac's best car in 40 years and relatively competitive. 2nd gen CTS was full on competitive.

[hotrodalex]

Oh, I forgot there's a 3rd gen CTS now. By "old CTS" did you mean the 2nd gen? If so, I agree. The 3rd gen CTS is nice since it's no longer in between the 3er and 5er, but the design suffered (especially the rear quarter panel) compared to the 2nd gen.

I love the ATS, and especially the ATS-V. The sides might be a little slabby, but I prefer that compared to being overwrought with unnecessary bulges and cuts. The sharpness of the details  is what solidifies the design.

[12,000 RPM]

Yea I meant the one from like 4 years ago. I dont think its tweener size was a problem- the G35 was that size when it came out and it was fine. You get a roomy RWD sedan for 3 series money.

I think simplicity can work but there has to be something captivating about the design and for me there isn't. ATS details are boring and the proportions/general shape are boring too. Big letdown in the context of the Elmiraj. Cadillacs are supposed to be brash and bold like the Escalade, not restrained and tidy like an Audi. JMO though

[GoCougs]

Wat would it take to bring the poser class up to satisfactory snuff? I'm thinking about all the models in the class and I'm kind of struggling to think of what would get me excited about one. I think my pick of the segment is the IS350, though I would like it more with two blowers and a 7MT. But as far as excitement... excitement? There's no ground left to cover. G35 got us out of the realm of 1989 SHO horsepower. E90 3 brought us big turbo engines. F30 bumped the class up to 5 series size (for better or worse- I say better). NA is over unfortunately and high power NA in this segment isn't competitive in street performance for this class. What's left? All I can see is maybe fringe players stepping up their design. The ATS should have been a lot sexier. IS could have been a little less weird. Etc. etc.

The new IS350 I find awful (most in reusing a 10-year-old motor)

There's plenty of juice left in N/A power plants. It's regulation that is killing it not lack of performance. Very sad.

Poser class is the way it because that is what sells - badge + worthless tech + faux luxury. The vast majority of buyers don't care about performance, ergo the warping of the class.

[CALL_911]

I really wanna try out a new IS350 F

[12,000 RPM]

The new IS350 I find awful (most in reusing a 10-year-old motor)

Barring the new C-Class I think all the cars in this class are using 10 year old engines (even the 3 series).

There's plenty of juice left in N/A power plants. It's regulation that is killing it not lack of performance. Very sad.

This is just not true, at least not in the context of what this class wants. How can they extract more? More tech? Then they have high revs, high cost and high NVH like the VQ37. More displacement? That's more pumping losses and worse fuel economy. More revs? Again high cost, high NVH, worse fuel consumption. Even without emissions things are at about their limit. Plus emissions are heavily tied to efficiency- more efficiency = less fuel burned, and cleaner emissions = less fuel out the tailpipe.

Poser class is the way it because that is what sells - badge + worthless tech + faux luxury. The vast majority of buyers don't care about performance, ergo the warping of the class.

How can a product dictated by what the market for it wants be warped? If the bulk of poser class buyers want the cars to be what they are then there is no distortion.

[GoCougs]

The G is responsible for the size increase too...I believe the first generation G35 was significantly larger than the cars it competed with. First generation CTS too, but that didn't move in the same volume the G did.

Seems pretty clear to me that the cars in the class are the best they have ever been and the perceived lack of excitement is because they are pretty similar and quite good. This wasn't true 10-15 years ago when everyone was doing everything a little different and each car had a list of caveats (but the Cadillac is bigger, the Infiniti is faster, the Mercedes is more luxurious, the Lexus is the best driver, the Saab looks better, etc, etc).

Circa 2002 poser class cars were just too small - A4, IS300, 3er. They were in effect 4-door 2+2. The G35 wasn't a ton bigger - 186" in length, which was still shorter than the Camry, Altima, and Accord - but actually brought much needed useful size both front and back.

[MX793]

The N20 was new for 2011 and the N55 was new for 2009.

[68_427]

The c450 is getting pretty high praise

[Cookie Monster]

I'm not going to lie, the Q50 with the full sports package and body kit and everything looks fucking nice. Definitely an eye turner IMO, and hits the sweet spot of Nissan/Infiniti's trying-to-be-edgy-but-not-fugly theme. Unfortunately most of the rest of their lineup just falls into the fugly category.

[hotrodalex]

I'm not going to lie, the Q50 with the full sports package and body kit and everything looks fucking nice. Definitely an eye turner IMO, and hits the sweet spot of Nissan/Infiniti's trying-to-be-edgy-but-not-fugly theme. Unfortunately most of the rest of their lineup just falls into the fugly category.

+1

Only complaint is the silly naming convention.

[GoCougs]

I've definitely warmed up to the Q50 esp. after having a couple as service loaners. The multimedia interface is a total deal breaker though.

[Cookie Monster]

I've definitely warmed up to the Q50 esp. after having a couple as service loaners. The multimedia interface is a total deal breaker though.

What didn't you like about it? I only poked around in one when my dad was buying his G, but from what I remembered, it was a nice system but that black touch panel was a total fingerprint magnet.

[GoCougs]

Well, I'm biased, but ALL in-car interfaces I've seen are absolutely awful. The Q50's was that extra measure of awfulness in that the design of the two screens looked utterly incoherent. The top (nav) screen was inset into the dash and had a matte/anti-glare surface. The multimedia interface was flush with the dash and had a gloss surface.

[12,000 RPM]

The N20 was new for 2011 and the N55 was new for 2009.

N55 is just a single turbo N54 which came out in 2006 (and is really just a turbo all-aluminum N52 which came out in 2004, which shares bore spacing with the M5x series engines which came out in like 91). N20 is just a chopped down N55. GM's 3.6 came out in 2004 etc. etc. All the engines in the class are old but it's all good as they were all well ahead of their time.

And I still take issue with the idea that there's more potential in them. VQ35 made 240HP in 2002, VQ37 makes 350HP in top trim. That was the kind of specific output limited to exotics.

[CALL_911]

Easy there, the N54 was derived from the M54, not the N52. It had an alum block, not the magnesium block the N52 used.

[GoCougs]

N55 is just a single turbo N54 which came out in 2006 (and is really just a turbo all-aluminum N52 which came out in 2004, which shares bore spacing with the M5x series engines which came out in like 91). N20 is just a chopped down N55. GM's 3.6 came out in 2004 etc. etc. All the engines in the class are old but it's all good as they were all well ahead of their time.

And I still take issue with the idea that there's more potential in them. VQ35 made 240HP in 2002, VQ37 makes 350HP in top trim. That was the kind of specific output limited to exotics.

Nah, a number of lesser (and older) cars have had N/A ~90+ hp/L - S2000, Civic SI, Genesis 3.8L, new Mustang 5.0, BRZ/FRS, Azera 3.3L, Camaro 3.6L, and I'm sure others.

There is plenty left in the VQ or a N/A V6 in general - bump up to 4.0L, add DI, throw in a bit more tech, and ~375 hp is easy. If Infiniti were to spend time on a really good A/T or DSG and again make available the M/T, Infiniti could definitely break the segment open (again).

[MX793]

N20 is just a chopped down N55.

There is much more to developing a motor than simply chopping cylinders off.  Completely different crankshaft (and configuration).  It also has twin balance shafts (the I6 motors do not have any; they don't need them) to quell the inherent buzziness of an I4, which means the block design had to be altered to include provisions for the shafts.  It shares some geometries (bore spacing, bore and stroke), and likely uses the same pistons and con-rods, but that doesn't make it a lightly refreshed motor.

And the N55 is more than an N54 with a single turbo instead of twins.  Completely different head and valvetrain (N55 has Valvetronic, N54 did not).