2CV or 4CV

[cawimmer430]

Citroen 2CV - front engine, air-cooled, FWD





Renault 4CV - rear engine, liquid-cooled, RWD

[cawimmer430]

Citroen 2CV!

This summer I hope to shoot an ex-French policecar from the '50s/'60s: a Renault 4CV tuned by legendary tuner Gordini!

[SVT666]

Neither.  I must be one of the few that can't comprehend the love for these cars. 

[FoMoJo]

I like the 2CV as a piece of art but not, particularly, as a car.

[shp4man]

I'm not sure how or why, but there's one of these running around out here in East San Diego county, Calfornia. 

[Onslaught]

That red thing isn't as butt ugly as that yellow thing. But I still don't want it.

[J86]

love those deux chevaux.  itd be so much fun to have one of the canvas roofed ones for tooling around town in the summer

[Laconian]

IIRC, the 4CV isn't remembered as fondly as the iconic 2CV.

[cawimmer430]

I'm not sure how or why, but there's one of these running around out here in East San Diego county, Calfornia. 

You sure it's a 4CV? AFAIK they were never sold in the US.

But the similar-looking (and larger) Renault Dauphine was. Also rear-engined.

[cawimmer430]

That red thing isn't as butt ugly as that yellow thing. But I still don't want it.

The red one is RWD! That's all that matters, bro! 

[Onslaught]

The red one is RWD! That's all that matters, bro! 

No, it's still got to be good. Just because a car's RWD don't mean a thing.


And it's ugly.


And probably a Euro POS.

[cawimmer430]

love those deux chevaux.  itd be so much fun to have one of the canvas roofed ones for tooling around town in the summer

If you want to do roadtrips with one, the "Sahara" is the one to get. It's got two engines: one in the front, one in the back and is, AFAIK, the only car in the world that can be driven in either FWD, AWD or RWD mode!

[cawimmer430]

No, it's still got to be good. Just because a car's RWD don't mean a thing.


And it's ugly.


And probably a Euro POS.

Cars like this were meant to make the population mobile. They're the Ford Model T's of France.

[Onslaught]

Cars like this were meant to make the population mobile. They're the Ford Model T's of France.

Oh, so they suck more then I thought.

[J86]

If you want to do roadtrips with one, the "Sahara" is the one to get. It's got two engines: one in the front, one in the back and is, AFAIK, the only car in the world that can be driven in either FWD, AWD or RWD mode!

That is REALLY awesome!

Although I think I'd pick something else for a long safari, or even just a long drive!

[cawimmer430]

That is REALLY awesome!

Although I think I'd pick something else for a long safari, or even just a long drive!

Here's a great roadtrip car from France! I am lusting after a Matra-Simca Rancho. It's sad that most of 'em have rusted away. 

[FoMoJo]

Cars like this were meant to make the population mobile. They're the Ford Model T's of France.

Wasn't the 2CV the 'peoples car' that they buried during the war and then dug it up when it was over?  Seems I read something like that about it.  To be perfectly honest, it was quite an innovative vehicle for the time and did serve the French public much in the same way that the Model T served much of the world previously.  It even was useful on the farm and could traipse across a ploughed field as easily as a tractor.  What I admire, mostly, about it, is the simple beauty.  Art Deco at its finest.

[cawimmer430]

Wasn't the 2CV the 'peoples car' that they buried during the war and then dug it up when it was over?  Seems I read something like that about it.  To be perfectly honest, it was quite an innovative vehicle for the time and did serve the French public much in the same way that the Model T served much of the world previously.  It even was useful on the farm and could traipse across a ploughed field as easily as a tractor.  What I admire, mostly, about it, is the simple beauty.  Art Deco at its finest.

Yep, the prototype was constructed before World War II and hidden from the Germans.





After the war the 2CV was one of the most advanced and intelligent designed (weigh distribution, packaging, features, suspension etc.) cars available. Despite it's simple and breakable appearance, they were quite solid.

They're very popular classic cars in Europe. Prices now range from 15,000 to even 30,000 Euros!!!

I can see the appeal and I wouldn't mind one. It's definitely one of the legendary and great cars of the world.

[Laconian]

I want to do the Parisian tour in a 2CV. I saw a video where Rick Steves did that and it delighted his stoner ass.

[FoMoJo]

Yep, the prototype was constructed before World War II and hidden from the Germans.

Is that the one they dug up?

Obviously the early ones were not as pretty as the later series.

[cawimmer430]

I want to do the Parisian tour in a 2CV. I saw a video where Rick Steves did that and it delighted his stoner ass.

Same here. A roadtrip across France in a 2CV (and later in a DS, SM and CX) sounds like fun. The 2CV is comfortable and top speed on the more powerful versions is around 110 km/h.

[cawimmer430]

Is that the one they dug up?

Obviously the early ones were not as pretty as the later series.

I think it was hidden in a farmhouse somewhere. Never read anything about the prototype being buried somewhere.

[CJ]

Absolutely the 2CV.

[Rupert]

I want to do the Parisian tour in a 2CV. I saw a video where Rick Steves did that and it delighted his stoner ass.

My boss reminds me of Rick Steves.

[Colin]

The Renault 4CV was sold in the US. Intended to rival the Beetle, it never even got close in sale volumes.

The 2CV Sahara is an intriguing concept, but not quite unique. BMC built a few Twinis, Minis with 2 engines as well, but it proved very hard to make them driveable and the idea was quickly scrapped. Someone has recreated an example, though. 

[cawimmer430]

Landslide victory for the 2CV! Wow!

[Raza]

love those deux chevaux.  itd be so much fun to have one of the canvas roofed ones for tooling around town in the summer

Saw one of those years back when I had the Boxster.  Pulled up alongside him, we exchanged nods, and I took off.  Personally, I'd rather have an old SL for cruising. 

[Madman]

The Renault 4CV was sold in the US. Intended to rival the Beetle, it never even got close in sale volumes.

Yes, from 1949-61, the 4CV was available in America.  Despite debuting Stateside the same year as the VW Beetle (and having the added benefit of four doors versus the Beetle's two), Renault 4CV sales were barely a blip on the radar compared to the omnipotent Volkswagen.

Early examples of La Quatre Chevaux sold in America were sometimes referred to as the "Green Renault" because they were imported by the John L. Green Operations Corporation of New York (with regional offices in Los Angeles and Atlanta).  By 1950, Renault had set up a direct factory branch office, also in New York, to handle the importation and distribution of Renualts in the US.


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1949 models came in either "Standard" or "Grand Luxe" versions, with the Standard being dropped for 1950.  1951 models received a slightly smaller (but more powerful) engine and three new trim levels; 4CV (with sliding windows), 4CV Luxe and 4CV Super Grand Luxe (both with roll-down windows).


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For 1952, the base 4CV and it's sliding windows disappeared.




No major changes occurred until 1956 when the 747cc engine gained slightly more power and a Fertec automatic clutch became optional.  1956 US-spec models also included a new rubber-mounted front suspension, automatic choke, a semi-pliable plastic steering wheel, sunvisors and interior door handles.  Rubber safety trim now cushioned the lower edge of the dashboard and the upper edge of the windshield frame.


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1957 4CV trims were simplified to one model as the newly launched Dauphine became the primary focus of Renault's US marketing efforts.  The 4CV remained available in the US until 1961 when production in France ended.

These are the US sales figures I could find......

1949:  1,402
1950:  1,551
1951:  777
1952:  374
1953:  110 (4CV and Fregate combined)

Looks like sales started okay but then began to slide.  I have no data for 1954-56 sales but, with the launch of the Dauphine in 1957, Renault's US sales skyrocketed.

1957:  22,586 (4CV and Dauphine combined)
1958:  48,148 (4CV and Dauphine combined)
1959:  91, 073 (4CV and Dauphine combined)

Its safe to assume the lion's share of those sales were of the Dauphine.  Renault sales then began to slide again in the early '60s.

1960:  62,772 (4CV, Dauphine/Gordini and Caravelle combined)
1961:  44,122 (4CV, Dauphine/Gordini and Caravelle combined)
1962:  29,763 (Dauphine/Gordini and Caravelle combined)

[cawimmer430]

Thanks for the info, Madman.

What kind of Americans bought Renaults in those days? Were these people who wanted something economical? Wanted to be different? Or generally just had a thing for foreign cars?


There's a great story on the Renault Caravelle. They named it "Floride" for the American market because they wanted to sell many of these in America and figured that by naming it after an American state, it would do well in sunny Florida! 

Amazing how much fun people had in a 45/55-hp rear-engined convertible/coupe in those days! 

[Madman]

Well, I wasn't alive when the 4CV was sold here (I wasn't born until '69) so I can't really say what motivated some Americans to choose a Renault (or any other "foreign" car) over the ubiquitous American cars of the era.

What I do know is that many contemporary ads from European manufacturers in America pitched their cars as a "second" car.  I guess as something for the wife to drive or a backup car to have in addition to a traditional huge American car?  From reading many old advertisements, I get the impression nobody expected the typical American to drive "some funny little furrin' car" as their primary vehicle.


BTW, I'm afraid to say you have the Floride/Caravelle names backwards.  Wikipedia explains it best......

"Renault were envious of the growing success in North America of the Volkswagen Bug/Beetle and were looking for ways they might match the Volkswagen's success with their own Renault Dauphine. At a convention of North American distributors that took place in Florida, Renault's US dealers called for the creation of a Dauphine coupé/cabriolet which would improve Renault's image in the critical US market. Renault's chairman, Pierre Dreyfus, agreed, and since the concept had been born at a convention in Florida the car instantly became known within the company as the "Renault Floride".  The "Floride" name was considered unsuitable for 49 of the 50 states of the USA, however, since it could have implied disrespect to states other than Florida. For this reason an alternative name, "Caravelle", was from the start used for North America and for other major markets (including the UK) where the principal language was a form of English."

I should also point out that from 1962-onwards, the Caravelle name replaced Floride in all markets, including France.