BMW 3 series loses comparo in Car and Driver to Lexus IS.

[565]

Don't have a scan or the article, but did anyone see the new Car and Driver?  They pretty much ripped the new 3 series apart.  It did manage to beat the ATS, but the ATS was by far the best to drive.  It appears that the 3 series is the worst driving car of the bunch, and "under engineered."  They were thoroughly impressed with the new IS however, so this new car must be really something.

[SVT666]

Don't have a scan or the article, but did anyone see the new Car and Driver?  They pretty much ripped the new 3 series apart.  It did manage to beat the ATS, but the ATS was by far the best to drive.  It appears that the 3 series is the worst driving car of the bunch, and "under engineered."  They were thoroughly impressed with the new IS however, so this new car must be really something.

Yeah, I saw this.  ATS would have been higher if CUE didn't suck so bad and the powertrain was better sorted.  Chassis and suspension were the best of the group.

[GoCougs]

I have it. The ATS was docked for a lousy AT, CUE and interior space - it was also the slowest. 335i was called "undercooked" but, "(W)hen engaged, it is superbly balanced." There were complaints about steering and general ride and handling. It was BY FAR the quickest at 0-60 in 4.6 sec and 13.3 @ 105 in the 1/4 mile.

I find it a lol that the all-new $50k IS350 and ATS 3.6 couldn't outrun a sub-$30k V6 Camcord (which is odd for the IS350, as the first generation was a mid-13 sec car). This segment was fantastic prior IMO and now it's back to faltering, but that's more a nod to the engineering efforts put into Camcords than it is an explicit failure in this segment. The Infiniti Q50 is probably gonna suck in the same way.

IMO the only viable cars in the segment are the 335i and S4 (which really isn't in the segment but one notch up) but IMO you'd have to be nuts to buy either one. I've only had the G37x for a bit more than a year but already thinking about replacing it, especially depending on my new job but there's nothing that is good enough .

[hotrodalex]

Steering and ride complaints seem really strange for a BMW. Usually those are their strengths.

[TurboDan]

The entire segment has jumped the shark. These near-lux small midsizers were cool when you could get a taste of luxury plus great performance/handling without breaking the bank. But a $50K 3er or IS? Give me a break. Just not worth it by any stretch, especially when you have cars like the BRZ, GTI, etc. out there.

[MrH]

An auto journalist saying the 3 series is underengineered is like a janitor telling someone that a bridge is "underengineered".

What does that even mean?

[r0tor]

I still love the looks and the engine of the 335i MSport.  The chassis can be fixed with the BMW M performance suspension and it might also fix the steering as they reprogram it... but then your spending another $3k on top of an already outrageously priced car just to fix it.

I always hoped to move up to this segment with my next car purchase, but I dont see the point of doing so anymore.  Part of me would really like to see a subaru/mazda type company step up to the plate and bitch slap this segment for under $40k.

[GoCougs]

The entire segment has jumped the shark. These near-lux small midsizers were cool when you could get a taste of luxury plus great performance/handling without breaking the bank. But a $50K 3er or IS? Give me a break. Just not worth it by any stretch, especially when you have cars like the BRZ, GTI, etc. out there.

Nah, the segment isn't any more expensive than it's been for at least the last 10 years; if anything it's a bit cheaper today as many things are.

[GoCougs]

An auto journalist saying the 3 series is underengineered is like a janitor telling someone that a bridge is "underengineered".

What does that even mean?

"Under engineered" was 565's comment not C&D's. The latter only went so far as to say "undercooked" and "feels less thoroughly engineered than its competition."

BMW knew what it was doing when it designed the F30 - what their exact purpose was I'm not sure but what it does is what it was intended to do (= thoroughly engineered).

[MexicoCityM3]

I haven't driven the F30 335i, only the 328i and found it as good as the E90 and better in power.

The 3 keeps leading its segment and sales of BMW in general keep growing and raking in profits, so I don't see them paying much attention to C&D's criticism anytime soon.

BMW has broadened their appeal to people who aren't as bent on driving dynamics but on other stuff. It used to be that any BMW could be counted on to lead it's segment in driving dynamics. Now you have to cherry pick the range to get that. I do think the 328i is fantastic as are most any of the 1-series cars. Further up it seems the 5 is loved by euro rags but not so much in the US. I drove a 535i and found the steering ok. And I love the looks.

[CALL_911]

The new IS has one of my favorite interiors in recent memory. 

[Laconian]

http://lexusenthusiast.com/2013/04/30/car-driver-comparison-2014-lexus-is-350-f-sport-vs-bmw-335i-m-sport-vs-cadillac-ats-3-6/

[SVT_Power]

I haven't driven the current gen 3 yet, but the E90/E46 3ers both felt pretty harsh in terms of ride quality. Sure it handled better than a lot of cars, but let's be honest it's great for what it is, not an absolute great. I always felt the trade off just wasn't there for the 3 series.

[hotrodalex]

I haven't driven the current gen 3 yet, but the E90/E46 3ers both felt pretty harsh in terms of ride quality. Sure it handled better than a lot of cars, but let's be honest it's great for what it is, not an absolute great. I always felt the trade off just wasn't there for the 3 series.

Non-M's? I've never heard a complaint about that. They're not cushy like a Cadillac or Lexus, but not a Lotus Elise either.

[MexicoCityM3]

Well, this just in from Edmunds. Basically comparing the same cars but in the lower spec models: IS 250 vs ATS 2.0T vs. 328i

The BMW wins it and surprisingly on its traditional power & handling strengths. Check out the performance. It basically destroys the other two.

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/2013/comparison-test.html

"On the open road, where 600 feet of left-right-left-right exchanges at nearly 70 mph are a rarity, the BMW is by far the quickest and most confidence-inspiring. Even using its aforementioned mantra and the knowledge of a higher slalom speed, the Cadillac and its 272 hp simply can't hang with the BMW."

"Like the Lexus, this BMW has a nonadjustable suspension. Unlike in the Lexus, however, this proved an asset, as the BMW was the most comfortable around town and the most forgiving of surface imperfections. Humps and dips that caused hysterics in the other two were well damped in the BMW. "

"Finally, the BMW wasn't simply the fastest of the group, it was also the most fuel efficient. During our test we averaged 25 mpg and on the 116-mile Edmunds test loop, the 328i managed an astounding 33.6 mpg. Those are numbers that any compact car could be proud of, let alone one that can run 13-second quarter-mile times at the track."

[r0tor]

They still remark the bmw being sluggish suspension wise and steering is so-so.  Once again in this test the Lexus running all season's handles the bmw with summer performance tires.

[Colin]

Lexus beats the F30? ............ only in America. 

[Laconian]

Edmunds and C&D... they're testing the same car? Weird!

[r0tor]

Edmunds handling comments on the 328i M Sport

Slalom: After my first pass with the sportiest settings (Sport+ with Dynamic Traction Control), I asked if BMW offered aSport package for this car because it felt alittle reluctant to transition from side to side and there are no shift paddles for the shiftable automatic. I was surprised to learn that this is the M Sport version. That said, the steering wheel construction is very nice, it offers excellent precision allowing inch-perfect placement of the car, but only so-so feel for the front tires' grip. It's interesting that the car tends to lose grip first at the rear, but that doesn't match with its sluggish response in transition. As a result, the limiting factor is not the permissive ESC, but that combo of tire grip and slow-to-transition reflexes. Skid pad: The steering feels reasonably natural and precise here with appropriate effort, but overall, the sensations are far from where BMW once defined the target for others.

[veeman]

i'm not surprised v6 camcords can hang with or beat some of these cars in a straight line.  Equivalent horsepower and equivalent weight.  These cars need to start offering launch control to up their game. 

[Xer0]

Well, this just in from Edmunds. Basically comparing the same cars but in the lower spec models: IS 250 vs ATS 2.0T vs. 328i

The BMW wins it and surprisingly on its traditional power & handling strengths. Check out the performance. It basically destroys the other two.

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/2013/comparison-test.html

"On the open road, where 600 feet of left-right-left-right exchanges at nearly 70 mph are a rarity, the BMW is by far the quickest and most confidence-inspiring. Even using its aforementioned mantra and the knowledge of a higher slalom speed, the Cadillac and its 272 hp simply can't hang with the BMW."

"Like the Lexus, this BMW has a nonadjustable suspension. Unlike in the Lexus, however, this proved an asset, as the BMW was the most comfortable around town and the most forgiving of surface imperfections. Humps and dips that caused hysterics in the other two were well damped in the BMW. "

"Finally, the BMW wasn't simply the fastest of the group, it was also the most fuel efficient. During our test we averaged 25 mpg and on the 116-mile Edmunds test loop, the 328i managed an astounding 33.6 mpg. Those are numbers that any compact car could be proud of, let alone one that can run 13-second quarter-mile times at the track."

Man, that BMW engine really makes the other two look bad.  To be fair, the Lexus 2.5 has looked bad since launch in the first gen IS.  I bet the upcoming 320 will probably be a better fit to these two, performance wise (not to mention -4g in price).  But that Lexus looks good.

[LonghornTX]

It seems the 328i is the pick of the F30 range. And man, is that IS ugly (to me)

[cawimmer430]

I'm going to go buy a Lexus IS right now.

[r0tor]

It seems the 328i is the pick of the F30 range. And man, is that IS ugly (to me)

I still wouldn't say that... The only reason the 328I is winning comparos is because it's severely out powering the competition.  The handling is still mediocre from all accounts.

[SJ_GTI]

I have it. The ATS was docked for a lousy AT, CUE and interior space - it was also the slowest. 335i was called "undercooked" but, "(W)hen engaged, it is superbly balanced." There were complaints about steering and general ride and handling. It was BY FAR the quickest at 0-60 in 4.6 sec and 13.3 @ 105 in the 1/4 mile.

I find it a lol that the all-new $50k IS350 and ATS 3.6 couldn't outrun a sub-$30k V6 Camcord (which is odd for the IS350, as the first generation was a mid-13 sec car). This segment was fantastic prior IMO and now it's back to faltering, but that's more a nod to the engineering efforts put into Camcords than it is an explicit failure in this segment. The Infiniti Q50 is probably gonna suck in the same way.

IMO the only viable cars in the segment are the 335i and S4 (which really isn't in the segment but one notch up) but IMO you'd have to be nuts to buy either one. I've only had the G37x for a bit more than a year but already thinking about replacing it, especially depending on my new job but there's nothing that is good enough .

I was given a (newish) Camry SE the last time I had my S4 in for service and while it wasn't nearly as bad as the last camry I drove (~6+ years ago), it was no where near a 3-series, A4/S4, or Cadillac ATS. I haven't been in a Lexus IS in about that long (6+ years, I test drove a Lexus IS250 when shopping for a car and eventually bought the GTI) but I would assume it is on par with the BMW/Audi/Caddy. A recently had a Nissan Altima for over a week (when my car was getting repaired from a fender bender) and I was genuinely surprised how much I didn't like that car.

Of the mainstreamers I have driven in the last two years I would put them in this order:

Chevy Malibu
Kia Optima
Toyota Camry
...
Nissan Altima

And none were close to the entry level luxury brands (IMHO).

[Raza]

The entire segment has jumped the shark. These near-lux small midsizers were cool when you could get a taste of luxury plus great performance/handling without breaking the bank. But a $50K 3er or IS? Give me a break. Just not worth it by any stretch, especially when you have cars like the BRZ, GTI, etc. out there.

50K is the new 30K.

[Raza]

Non-M's? I've never heard a complaint about that. They're not cushy like a Cadillac or Lexus, but not a Lotus Elise either.

Elises are actually quite comfortable. 

[Raza]

I was given a (newish) Camry SE the last time I had my S4 in for service and while it wasn't nearly as bad as the last camry I drove (~6+ years ago), it was no where near a 3-series, A4/S4, or Cadillac ATS. I haven't been in a Lexus IS in about that long (6+ years, I test drove a Lexus IS250 when shopping for a car and eventually bought the GTI) but I would assume it is on par with the BMW/Audi/Caddy. A recently had a Nissan Altima for over a week (when my car was getting repaired from a fender bender) and I was genuinely surprised how much I didn't like that car.

Of the mainstreamers I have driven in the last two years I would put them in this order:

Chevy Malibu
Kia Optima
Toyota Camry
...
Nissan Altima

And none were close to the entry level luxury brands (IMHO).

Stop looking at them as cars and look at them as spec sheets instead.

[Colin]

The new IS is utterly utterly hideous.

Nothing I have read suggests that it will be much better than a posh Toyota to drive, just like the outgoing model.......... I submit that in Europe at least, no-one and I mean absolutely no-one, who is considering an F30, a C Class, an A4 would even give it a second thought. In UK, the pitiful handful of IS that are sold are almost all bought by private buyers (as are the GS models), unlike all the rivals almost all of which are company/lease purchases.

If you want a slightly plush appliance that will keep going for years, by all means buy the Lexus (and a blindfold so you don't have to look at it), but for anyone with a milligramme of petrol in their veins, just ignore it........     

[GoCougs]

I was given a (newish) Camry SE the last time I had my S4 in for service and while it wasn't nearly as bad as the last camry I drove (~6+ years ago), it was no where near a 3-series, A4/S4, or Cadillac ATS. I haven't been in a Lexus IS in about that long (6+ years, I test drove a Lexus IS250 when shopping for a car and eventually bought the GTI) but I would assume it is on par with the BMW/Audi/Caddy. A recently had a Nissan Altima for over a week (when my car was getting repaired from a fender bender) and I was genuinely surprised how much I didn't like that car.

Of the mainstreamers I have driven in the last two years I would put them in this order:

Chevy Malibu
Kia Optima
Toyota Camry
...
Nissan Altima

And none were close to the entry level luxury brands (IMHO).

Sure there are differences in other aspects of the cars - the Camcord class is the most competitive (and best) retail automotive segment extent so there are going to be some compromises. IMO it's very problematic though when a $50k entry-level lux or "sports" sedan isn't any quicker/faster than a $28k V6 Camry/Accord/Altima; doubly so when the ALL NEW versions of the former have engines 6-7+ years old.

Sure a Q50 or A4 is a better drive than a $28k Accord V6, but $22k better? The entry lux class is in the doldrums, and not worth it at this point IMO (new). Since this class depreciates something fierce there are good deals on slightly used/off-lease cars but IMO you've have to be absolutely mental to buy a $50k 328i, A4 or IS350.