24 hours of Lemons at Autobahn Country Club South

[280Z Turbo]

I went racing this weekend with some guys who built a Geo Metro with a Taurus SHO V6 in the hatch. It has the front subframe of Taurus SHO in the back and the front subframe of a Mercury Sable in the front. The rear steering rack was welded in place.

It started out as the Silk Cut Jaguar/Sick Gut Gaguar, but for this race we made it look like Monster Tajima's record breaking GoPro Pikes Peak Suzuki SX4. We used a folding table to replicate the front splitter which became the autograph table for our "NoPro" driver. One of the guys researched wing profiles to maximize downforce and designed one with wooden spars wrapped in aluminum flashing. The side pieces are plywood.

Build thread here:
http://www.ziptied.com/forums/index.php?topic=29727.0

Car and Driver coverage:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-chicago-inspections-v6-swapped-geo-metro-battle-of-the-century-iron-duke-racers-prepared-for-glory

http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-chicago-day-one-camaro-somehow-leads-v6-metros-skirmish/

Rusty Hub pics:
https://www.facebook.com/TheRustyHub/photos_stream

I drove for about 2 hours. It was complete chaos. I was just trying to stay out of trouble, but it's hard when you've got so much traffic and inexperienced drivers doing whatever they feel like. I avoided the apexes in traffic because I was so afraid of someone diving to the inside. I drove very conservatively, but avoided penalty laps and returned to the pits with the car in working order.

On Sunday we were running in 2nd place for B class, but lost a rear wheel due to sheared wheel studs. We retrieved the wheel, replaced the studs, and sent another driver out. It happened again after about 90 minutes. We fixed it again and sent the team captain out for the last 10 minutes of the race so he could get the checker. He was probably only doing 45 mph or so, but at least we finished!

We completed the most laps of all three Geos so we won the Geo Cup:


I'm hoping to get some videos soon!

[SVT666]

I read an article that said 24 hrs of Lemons isn't even affordable anymore for most people.  Sounds awesome though.

[280Z Turbo]

I read an article that said 24 hrs of Lemons isn't even affordable anymore for most people.  Sounds awesome though.

It's not.

Racing an old IT car in normal SCCA club racing is probably cheaper.

[r0tor]

I love the idea of LeMons but some of it is down right scary... at new jersey motorsports park I saw people in poorly mended jalopies topping 100mph with 15 year old dry rotted tires.  I also saw someone miss a shift and the driveshaft tore half of the car apart and was inches from killing the driver.

Plus the price to get intoit and install all of the safety equipment is very high.

[280Z Turbo]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/24-hours-of-lemons-chicago-gm-sweeps-all-classes/

GM sweep!

For the first time ever, a Camaro won! Usually they blow up. The SBC gets an undeserved reputation as being bulletproof, but most of them are low revving and weak.

[Soup DeVille]

I love the idea of LeMons but some of it is down right scary... at new jersey motorsports park I saw people in poorly mended jalopies topping 100mph with 15 year old dry rotted tires.  I also saw someone miss a shift and the driveshaft tore half of the car apart and was inches from killing the driver.

Plus the price to get intoit and install all of the safety equipment is very high.

It's motorsports, it's going to be more dangerous than bocce ball or table tennis.

[MrH]

  Well done.  I'll look at the pictures and back story later tonight.

They sought you out to drive for them?  Must be quite the driver then...

[280Z Turbo]

Nope, just experienced.

[GoCougs]

Wow, pretty cool. And yes, the Chevy small block ain't anything special in the durability department, especially the so-called "2-bolt" blocks (main bearing caps had 2 bolts) which is likely what was in Camaros. 4-bolt blocks were pretty stout but quite rare (hi-po models).

[Madman]

The four-bolt blocks were supposedly used more extensively in trucks.

[Soup DeVille]

Oh no, Chevy small blocks are really, really stout and reliable.


(Once you put five to ten grand into the internals and valve train, upgrade the coolant, and meticulously blueprint and balance them)

[GoCougs]

Oh no, Chevy small blocks are really, really stout and reliable.


(Once you put five to ten grand into the internals and valve train, upgrade the coolant, and meticulously blueprint and balance them)

Block is the weak point really. The beefiest internals in the world don't mean a whole lot if the dimensional stability isn't there. The stock small block Chevy was never made with more than ~300 hp net and its block was designed as such.

[Soup DeVille]

Block is the weak point really. The beefiest internals in the world don't mean a whole lot if the dimensional stability isn't there. The stock small block Chevy was never made with more than ~300 hp net and its block was designed as such.

Properly built, they'll hold for over a thousand HP, but yes that usually involve a lot of welding.

[hotrodalex]

Block is the weak point really. The beefiest internals in the world don't mean a whole lot if the dimensional stability isn't there. The stock small block Chevy was never made with more than ~300 hp net and its block was designed as such.

300? Most built up engines are putting out 400-500 and have no issues with the block strength.

[GoCougs]

300? Most built up engines are putting out 400-500 and have no issues with the block strength.

Properly built, they'll hold for over a thousand HP, but yes that usually involve a lot of welding.

Think those engines will last 150,000 miles? I would suggest reviewing the LS3/LT1 block design for what it takes to make a reliable/warrantable 400 - 500 hp.

[hotrodalex]

Think those engines will last 150,000 miles? I would suggest reviewing the LS3/LT1 block design for what it takes to make a reliable/warrantable 400 - 500 hp.

Nope, but I've never seen a block failure.

[GoCougs]

Nope, but I've never seen a block failure.

What causes a block to "fail?"

And actually, most "built up" (old-school small block) engines are putting out considerably less than 400 - 500 hp.

[hotrodalex]

What causes a block to "fail?"

And actually, most "built up" (old-school small block) engines are putting out considerably less than 400 - 500 hp.

You tell me. I've never seen a block fail. Even on 1000 hp monsters, it usually just throws a rod.

And maybe back in the day, but it's easy to get 450 hp out of a SBC now. Cam, heads, intake, carb, and headers can all be ordered out of an Edelbrock/Jegs catalog and be installed in a day.

edit: disregard the 1000 hp comment, since yeah the block is usually modified like Soup said.

[Soup DeVille]

Think those engines will last 150,000 miles? I would suggest reviewing the LS3/LT1 block design for what it takes to make a reliable/warrantable 400 - 500 hp.

Is that what they're designed to do? Do you cover that many miles in a 24 hour race?

And are they failing because the block flexes like you claim?

Seriously dude, leave the condescending bullshit alone, it makes you look even more like an ass.

[GoCougs]

You tell me. I've never seen a block fail. Even on 1000 hp monsters, it usually just throws a rod.

And maybe back in the day, but it's easy to get 450 hp out of a SBC now. Cam, heads, intake, carb, and headers can all be ordered out of an Edelbrock/Jegs catalog and be installed in a day.

That's my point. A block can be too weak yet never "fail". A block's job is to hold dimensional stability. When it can't, even just a little bit, rings, bearings and bearing surfaces take a beating, which can lead to a slow demise (burning oil), a moderate demise (rod knock or spun bearing), or a catastrophic demise (something cuts loose and shoots out the side of the block or oil pan).

First and foremost, without the right compression ratio no manner of bolt-ons save for a F/I or NOS will get you 450 hp out of a SBC. Second, even with the right short block there is a fair amount of tuning in the carb and timing to get max performance. But my point wasn't that it can't be done it's that often it isn't because the motor you describe is an absolute bear on the street WRT vacuum and drive-ability. Most of the chromed-out old-school small blocks you see at shows are generally a lot less than 450 hp.

Again, I reference a modern pooprod block like the LS3. Its strength is hugely more than an old-school SBC (most notably, its deep skirt and cross-bolted mains with 6 bolts). Why? it was designed to properly handle (have long life) whilst containing ~450-500 hp. An old school SBC built to ~450-500 hp ain't going to last all that long.

[Secret Chimp]

Stop derailing cool threads with unrelated dumb shit for fuck sakes.

[Soup DeVille]

Stop derailing cool threads with unrelated dumb shit for fuck sakes.

Sorry.

[GoCougs]

IMO the best and easiest way to get a reliable 450+ hp out of an SBC is just to buy a junkyard LS2/3 or L92 w/tranny for ~$3-5k. They sell generic wiring harness kits to retrofit 'em into a older cars. Will be some work what with the engine/transmission mounts and drive shaft but it would be totally worth it.