Go fast or Feel fast - Which one do you REALLY want?

[12,000 RPM]

Cougs doesn't think steering feel matters, so I'm not surprised he doesn't get it.  Ignore him.

If it can't be quantified it doesn't matter.

[MexicoCityM3]

Theres more to the driving experience than chassis rigidity...

This is why the E30 M3 is selling for more than the E36 M3, which is much more rigid, refined, fast, grippy, etc.

The E30 sells for so much more because its production numbers were 10x less than the E36. Mostly.
And because you got the E36 "americanised" version.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

If it can't be quantified it doesn't matter.

He must be an engineer.

[2o6]

On another note, I don't understand the love for the Mustang. Both it and the Camaro feel like houses.



Feeling fast IMO is more important, it's why I adore slow-as-shit, unbalanced hatchbacks. They're fun to wring the shit out of.






Of the same token, I think a lot of this thread is bellyaching and hyperbole.

[12,000 RPM]

The E30 sells for so much more because its production numbers were 10x less than the E36. Mostly.
And because you got the E36 "americanised" version.

I don't think it's that big of a gap once you take out all the convertibles and automatics. And ours is neutered but it's still a league or two ahead of the E30 in performance. E30 is a significant car and in today's overweight computerized performance first world a unique driving experience. I think that is the main factor.

He must be an engineer.

But so are me and Craig. I am really curious to see what Mr. H has to say about this.

[SVT666]

No matter how cool and awesome I think many of these supercars are, if it needs a computer just to manage the power to keep the car on the road then maybe it's too much.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

No matter how cool and awesome I think many of these supercars are, if it needs a computer just to manage the power to keep the car on the road then maybe it's too much.

I wouldn't simplify it that much. ABS for example is a fantastic example of of technolog
that enhances performance and takes nothing away from the driver. Technology is good when its
Transparent.

[SVT666]

I wouldn't simplify it that much. ABS for example is a fantastic example of of technolog
that enhances performance and takes nothing away from the driver. Technology is good when its
Transparent.

ABS isn't managing the power to keep the car on the road.

[12,000 RPM]

No matter how cool and awesome I think many of these supercars are, if it needs a computer just to manage the power to keep the car on the road then maybe it's too much.

It's literally too much power for the street. Where can you even go WOT for a few gears in something like a mundane Carrera S, let alone a GT2 lol.

On one hand, it's great to be an enthusiast now as we have so much choice and such a spectrum of performance to choose from. On the other hand, it seems like we have reached the end of the rope of street car performance extraction (we hit the bottom of 0-60 times; 2.7s = 1g of acceleration to 60) and ironically seem to value performance over experience more than ever. Couple that with the emissions clampdown killing things like natural aspiration and stick shift.... weird times.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

ABS isn't managing the power to keep the car on the road.

Depends how you look at it I guess. An advanced awd system(quattro, attessa, mitsus awd,  etc)
all add to the drivers experience without many negative impacts.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I don't have a problem with the power. I can use 500hp on the street. Yes
I'm being "wreckless" and breaking the law but its not completely unusable. I just dint like power
at the expense of getting a car I actually want to drive.

[hotrodalex]

ABS is for pussies who can't threshold brake.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

ABS is for pussies who can't threshold brake.

Ive maybe hit abs 2 times in the last 5 years. A good abs system will still allow threshhlld
breaking. When you do hit it the technology is largely transparent when implemented properly.

[MX793]

True driver's cars have been on the decline ever since they started making cars in which the driver no longer had to advance the ignition timing manually on the fly.  It's been a downhill slide of ever decreasing driver involvement and control ever since.

[SVT666]

Depends how you look at it I guess. An advanced awd system(quattro, attessa, mitsus awd,  etc)
all add to the drivers experience without many negative impacts.

Some engines aren't even producing full power until they're in 3rd gear, and the ECU limits power after a shift to prevent catastrophic wheel spin. 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

True driver's cars have been on the decline ever since they started making cars in which the driver no longer had to advance the ignition timing manually on the fly.  It's been a downhill slide of ever decreasing driver involvement and control ever since.

Sarcasm? I hope.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Some engines aren't even producing full power until they're in 3rd gear, and the ECU limits power after a shift to prevent catastrophic wheel spin. 

I don't know of to many doing that. Some cars do a first gear limitation but those are normally auto transmission cars iirc.

[MX793]

I don't know of to many doing that. Some cars do a first gear limitation but those are normally auto transmission cars iirc.

Only car I know of that limits power like that is the MazdaSpeed3, and that's to curb torque steer in the first couple of gears.

[Soup DeVille]

When you're talking about 600+ HP cars on street tires, there are very few times when all that power is ever going to be usable in the first two or three gears.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Only car I know of that limits power like that is the MazdaSpeed3, and that's to curb torque steer in the first couple of gears.

Which is warrented and frankly still didn't do its job. The ms3 I test drove was torque steer city.

[SVT666]

True driver's cars have been on the decline ever since they started making cars in which the driver no longer had to advance the ignition timing manually on the fly.  It's been a downhill slide of ever decreasing driver involvement and control ever since.

Okay Chris.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Okay Chris.

It was electric starters that ruined it for me. If you don't run the risk of breaking your arm to start it then it isn't a real drivers car.

[SVT666]

When you're talking about 600+ HP cars on street tires, there are very few times when all that power is ever going to be usable in the first two or three gears.

Which are the only gears you can really use all the power your car makes because otherwise you are well into triple digits.

[GoCougs]

Theres more to the driving experience than chassis rigidity...

This is why the E30 M3 is selling for more than the E36 M3, which is much more rigid, refined, fast, grippy, etc.

So that the market price for a '70 Hemi 'Cuda is $500k+ says it's "the better driving experience" than a '13 SRT-8 Challenger?

[hotrodalex]

So that the market price for a '70 Hemi 'Cuda is $500k+ says it's "the better driving experience" than a '13 SRT-8 Challenger?

I'd say it is. Not that the new SRT-8s aren't fun, but a classic muscle car is on a different level.

[CALL_911]

True driver's cars have been on the decline ever since they started making cars in which the driver no longer had to advance the ignition timing manually on the fly.  It's been a downhill slide of ever decreasing driver involvement and control ever since.

lol word, i'm sigging this

[GoCougs]

Okay Chris.

He made the excellent, and really only, relevant point of the whole thread. The logical point you guys keep making without realizing it is it's been downhill from the beginning.

[GoCougs]

I'd say it is. Not that the new SRT-8s aren't fun, but a classic muscle car is on a different level.

It's not - handling, ride, braking, steering, acceleration, top speed, safety, NVH, ergonomics - there is NOTHING the '70 'Cuda does remotely as good as the '13 SRT-8, other than of course being one of the most iconic American cars ever built.

[SVT666]

So cars will be better when you can control it with your mind?

[hotrodalex]

It's not - handling, ride, braking, steering, acceleration, top speed, safety, NVH, ergonomics - there is NOTHING the '70 'Cuda does remotely as good as the '13 SRT-8, other than of course being one of the most iconic American cars ever built.

Doesn't mean it's not more fun.