Cadillac Elmiraj concept

[SVT666]

They could use a Corvette engine and I don't think anyone would notice anything amiss.

The problem with auto makers is that they disclose everything from platform sharing, to engines, transmissions, and electronics, and auto reviewers make up their minds before they even drive the car.

[hotrodalex]

The problem with auto makers is that they disclose everything from platform sharing, to engines, transmissions, and electronics, and auto reviewers make up their minds before they even drive the car.

Yup. A Corvette engine would probably feel similar to a big AMG engine, but since it's not associated with luxury it's too rough and harsh.

[Laconian]

Just call it the GM Omega Alpha Kappa II.

[Cookie Monster]

Yup. A Corvette engine would probably feel similar to a big AMG engine, but since it's not associated with luxury it's too rough and harsh.

You would also have people like Cougs who wouldn't buy one because it has a pooprod engine...

[Cookie Monster]

YEE BUDDY I FOUND THE EASTER EGG WORD

[Raza]

pooprod

A little on the nose, isn't it?   

EDIT:  Doesn't work if it's capitalized!

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Nothing wrong with the corvette motor, in a corvette.

That's what I'm talking about, pull a motor from a chevy and slap that 90K flagship together. Lets use a steering wheel from an aveo while we're at it.

I really don't see this as being hard, it's a flagship. It's low production, it represents the brand and brings people to your showroom. You aren't going to make a shit ton of money off of it.


Simple formula really.

Large, elegant yet bold styling.
Fine materials, luxury this and that, CRAFTSMANSHIP(get some had finished wood in there), etc
and make a statement with the motor for christs sake. Personally I'd push for a V16 if I were the one in charge of the project, it would cost little more than making a clean sheet 12. A 16 would make
a hell of a bigger(and louder) statement in the luxury world. Slap a price on it(90,100,110K range) and sell a few thousand a year.

Of course it will lose money, if your lucky it will break even. But think of the image it will bring, and then think of all the money you've pissed away getting celebrities to try and push your cars. No comparison, IMO.

[SVT666]

Nothing wrong with the corvette motor, in a corvette.

You missed the point.  If GM didn't tell anyone it was Corvette motor or that it was a pushrod and they covered it with a fancy plastic cover, nobody would know the difference.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

You missed the point.  If GM didn't tell anyone it was Corvette motor or that it was a pushrod and they covered it with a fancy plastic cover, nobody would know the difference.

No, I didn't.

MOST people wouldn't know the difference, alot would though.

Contrary to what most want to believe, I think a discerning luxury customer would notice. They wouldn't be able to specify exactly that it's the motor or it's design that's the problem. But my guess is you would here remarks about NVH or other things that would relate to the motor.

[SVT666]

I disagree.  There is no noticeable difference in NVH.

[Laconian]

The Vette motor would be operating super slowly 95% of the time, anyways.

[Secret Chimp]

No, I didn't.

MOST people wouldn't know the difference, alot would though.

Contrary to what most want to believe, I think a discerning luxury customer would notice. They wouldn't be able to specify exactly that it's the motor or it's design that's the problem. But my guess is you would here remarks about NVH or other things that would relate to the motor.

I don't think most buyers are "discerning luxury customers" to that point.

[12,000 RPM]

The 90K luxury sedan segment is irrelevant. 2012 was the first year of the A8's existence that it sold more than 6000 copies in the US (it beat that figure by 2). The 7 series sales figures are 1/3-1/2 what they were at its peak. Same story with the S Class. The LS is even worse off, with sales damn near 1/4 what they were at its peak in the last 10 years (never mind its debut), and many of its sales going to fleets, I think. In the city I saw a lot of LS doing executive cab duty... nobody's dream car is a 2013 LS.

In the US, the new status symbol is the luxury SUV or the Panamera. Europeans will never buy American luxury cars; their nationalism won't allow it. The few breakout successes of the last decade in the luxury realm have been the 300C (a stretch I know), the CTS, the little baby Range, and the CLS. Why would Caddy make their flagship in a body style nobody wants or cares about? Instead of a 3 series w/3 series pricing and a retarded HVAC interface, or a 90K flagship destined to go the way of the Phaeton, Caddy should focus on entering segments and markets of growth. These companies are in the business of making a point only to the extent that it makes them money. Lexus' revenue from the LS in the US didn't even account for 5% of the company's overall revenue Why the fuck would Caddy dump money into a flagship that would net them no money?

[12,000 RPM]

Nothing wrong with the corvette motor, in a corvette.

That's what I'm talking about, pull a motor from a chevy and slap that 90K flagship together. Lets use a steering wheel from an aveo while we're at it.

I really don't see this as being hard, it's a flagship. It's low production, it represents the brand and brings people to your showroom. You aren't going to make a shit ton of money off of it.


Simple formula really.

Large, elegant yet bold styling.
Fine materials, luxury this and that, CRAFTSMANSHIP(get some had finished wood in there), etc
and make a statement with the motor for christs sake. Personally I'd push for a V16 if I were the one in charge of the project, it would cost little more than making a clean sheet 12. A 16 would make
a hell of a bigger(and louder) statement in the luxury world. Slap a price on it(90,100,110K range) and sell a few thousand a year.

Of course it will lose money, if your lucky it will break even. But think of the image it will bring, and then think of all the money you've pissed away getting celebrities to try and push your cars. No comparison, IMO.

This is like saying the LFA helped Lexus sales (it didn't)

GM doesn't have that kind of money to throw away. They need a flagship that is visibile but also profitable and will move volume. A store brand A7 based on the XTS sounds like a better idea to me.

[MX793]

The 90K luxury sedan segment is irrelevant. 2012 was the first year of the A8's existence that it sold more than 6000 copies in the US (it beat that figure by 2). The 7 series sales figures are 1/3-1/2 what they were at its peak. Same story with the S Class. The LS is even worse off, with sales damn near 1/4 what they were at its peak in the last 10 years (never mind its debut), and many of its sales going to fleets, I think. In the city I saw a lot of LS doing executive cab duty... nobody's dream car is a 2013 LS.

In the US, the new status symbol is the luxury SUV or the Panamera. Europeans will never buy American luxury cars; their nationalism won't allow it. The few breakout successes of the last decade in the luxury realm have been the 300C (a stretch I know), the CTS, the little baby Range, and the CLS. Why would Caddy make their flagship in a body style nobody wants or cares about? Instead of a 3 series w/3 series pricing and a retarded HVAC interface, or a 90K flagship destined to go the way of the Phaeton, Caddy should focus on entering segments and markets of growth. These companies are in the business of making a point only to the extent that it makes them money. Lexus' revenue from the LS in the US didn't even account for 5% of the company's overall revenue Why the fuck would Caddy dump money into a flagship that would net them no money?

Interestingly, A8 production (and I presume sales) spiked considerably starting in 2011.  They went from consistently making ~21K cars a year (with 22.5K being their best year) to over 35K in both 2011 and 2012.

[GoCougs]

You would also have people like Cougs who wouldn't buy one because it has a pooprod engine...

There's a very good reason why GM spent $1B developing the ~300hp Northstar for Cadillac rather than simply using the 300 hp LT1 from the Corvette (the Northstar was a much more refined engine).

[Vinsanity]

There's a very good reason why GM spent $1B developing the ~300hp Northstar for Cadillac rather than simply using the 300 hp LT1 from the Corvette (the Northstar was a much more refined engine).

In hindsight, I'm not sure if that was a wise decision. Early N*s blew headgaskets like clockwork, and when the design hit a developmental dead-end around ~2010, it left Cadillac with no V8, with the exception of, you guessed it, a Chevy-derived small-block.

[12,000 RPM]

There's a very good reason why GM spent $1B developing the ~300hp Northstar for Cadillac rather than simply using the 300 hp LT1 from the Corvette (the Northstar was a much more refined engine).

And that reason was?

Which engine line is still with us today?

[SVT666]

Northstar was a good engine, but it wasn't a great engine.

[GoCougs]

In hindsight, I'm not sure if that was a wise decision. Early N*s blew headgaskets like clockwork, and when the design hit a developmental dead-end around ~2010, it left Cadillac with no V8, with the exception of, you guessed it, a Chevy-derived small-block.

It had issues, sure (Google what it takes a change a starter motor!) but when introduced in MY1993 it was world class, and outclassed the P O O P R O D small block . That GM dropped the ball by not advancing the engine during its ~17 year lifespan isn't the engine's fault. To compete with the A8, S-class, 7er, LS460, etc., Cadillac needs a proper DOHC V8 with VVTL (or, maybe the new CTS-V's 420 hp TTV6). One thing for sure, it won't be some P O O P R O D motor.

[GoCougs]

And that reason was?

Which engine line is still with us today?

P O O P R O D.

[Vinsanity]

It had issues, sure (Google what it takes a change a starter motor!) but when introduced in MY1993 it was world class, and outclassed the P O O P R O D small block . That GM dropped the ball by not advancing the engine during its ~17 year lifespan isn't the engine's fault. To compete with the A8, S-class, 7er, LS460, etc., Cadillac needs a proper DOHC V8 with VVTL (or, maybe the new CTS-V's 420 hp TTV6). One thing for sure, it won't be some P O O P R O D motor.

IIRC, there was something about the engine's design that prevented it from gaining displacement (which was the apparent solution to keeping it competitive; M-B massaged their V8 to 5.5 liters, and BMW to 5.0)

[SVT666]

From what I recall it was also a PITA to do any kind of work on.

[12,000 RPM]

From what I recall it was also a PITA to do any kind of work on.

Which apparently it needed a lot of

It seems like GM didn't really master the OHC engine until after the Northstar died.

[CJ]

How am I agreeing with Cougs? He is absolutely right here. The Northstar WAS a damn good engine in 1993, but then stupid GM issues kept holding it back. The lack of continuous development, maintenance woes, etc. Head gaskets seemed to be the biggest thing that 90s GM couldn't get right. They were able to get nearly 300 HP from 4.6 liters in 1993? That's superb. It was a great engine for packaging, as well as being effortless and smooth - everything a good engine in a luxury car should do.

[SVT666]

Sure, but it was a POS.

[CJ]

I never said it was reliable.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

The problem with the northstar was that GM does what it always does. Takes time to develop something, toss it out into the market and NEGLECT NEGLECT NEGLECT it until it's a laughing stock.

[3.0L V6]

The problem with the northstar was that GM does what it always does. Takes time to develop something, toss it out into the market and NEGLECT NEGLECT NEGLECT it until it's a laughing stock.

Yeah, they never seemed to devote a lot of energy to developing one good engine line during the '80s, '90s and 2000s. They would launch new engines (Northstar, 4.2L Atlas inline-6, 3.8L turbo V6, 3.5L Shortstar V6, etc., etc.) and then let them rot on the vine. If they had bothered to develop and refine one design, it likely would have been cheaper than tooling up for these engines and then scrapping them 5-10 years later.

It seems they've learned that lesson now.

[TurboDan]

You can't charge top dollar for a subpar product.  The XLR was not as good as the SL, but cost just about as much, that's why it failed.

The XLR drove great, the Northstar actually sounded great in it, and it looked awesome. I think it mostly suffered from general GM quality issues. When I pressed the touch screen, for example, it began to "sink" into the dash. When I pushed other buttons, they wobbled and the housing around certain dash components came loose. The springs in the mirrors notoriously would fail and the mirror would just slump down. The LCD screen was nowhere near as robust as the SL (hell, it wasn't as robust as an entry level C-Class). Stabilitrak always caused issues. Lots of MILs popping up.

It was a great idea that was executed poorly. The styling was right on, giving it a nice V8 was the way to go, and going after the SL from an American perspective was an awesome idea. I just wish that they could've done it without so many compromises.