MRAP and the creeping militarisation of the police

[Madman]

Can anyone explain why four sleepy suburbs of Nashville (Gallatin, Hendersonville, Mufreesboro and Lewisburg) should have need of a vehicle that can withstand blasts from land mines?  Especially Lewisburg, which is in the middle of fucking nowhere?

This increased militarisation of domestic American police forces is an alarming trend.

Full article here......

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441

[Byteme]

Can anyone explain why four sleepy suburbs of Nashville (Gallatin, Hendersonville, Mufreesboro and Lewisburg) should have need of a vehicle that can withstand blasts from land mines?  Especially Lewisburg, which is in the middle of fucking nowhere?

This increased militarisation of domestic American police forces is an alarming trend.

Full article here......

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/09/like-waking-up-on-christmas-morning-and-having-the-best-present-you-ever-had/#more-509441

Could be a case of the boys wanting their toys.  That and "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

[Laconian]

What a complete waste of money!

[J86]

Could be a case of the boys wanting their toys.  That and "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

Lots of times it's federal money.  Use it or lose it.  It would be best lost.

[12,000 RPM]

Small dicks

[bing_oh]

Most of these military vehicles are given at no cost to the departments by the Feds. They're used military vehicles, designed for a military purpose, so they're generally over-armored for civilian use. However, it's a matter of either purchasing a LE-use model with adequate protection (usually at the cost in excess of $100k for an armored vehicle) or getting one for free with too much protection. Small departments with limited budgets don't hesitate to take the free ones, thus getting more than what they need while saving the local taxpayers money.

[S204STi]

Most of these military vehicles are given at no cost to the departments by the Feds. They're used military vehicles, designed for a military purpose, so they're generally over-armored for civilian use. However, it's a matter of either purchasing a LE-use model with adequate protection (usually at the cost in excess of $100k for an armored vehicle) or getting one for free with too much protection. Small departments with limited budgets don't hesitate to take the free ones, thus getting more than what they need while saving the local taxpayers money.

So much for wasting taxpayer money...

And the LE-spec SWAT vehicles are pretty damn tough as well.  MRAPs FTW.

[bing_oh]

So much for wasting taxpayer money...

It's kinda like government recycling. Many of these vehicles would literally sit on a base and rot away into scrap if they weren't donated to local government in these programs. The same program gives PD's rifles...the military had so many of them is storage, they were actually giving unissied Vietnam-era M-16's out at one point. Departments would have them rebuilt to semi auto with modern furniture at a fraction of the cost of buying new AR's.

And the LE-spec SWAT vehicles are pretty damn tough as well.  MRAPs FTW.

They are, but they're generally not built to withstand combat-level attacks like the MRAP's. The funny thing is, this isn't really anything new. The LAPD developed SWAT in the 70's and used a surplus APC with a makeshift battering ram welded on the front.

[Soup DeVille]

It's kinda like government recycling. Many of these vehicles would literally sit on a base and rot away into scrap if they weren't donated to local government in these programs. The same program gives PD's rifles...the military had so many of them is storage, they were actually giving unissied Vietnam-era M-16's out at one point. Departments would have them rebuilt to semi auto with modern furniture at a fraction of the cost of buying new AR's.

They are, but they're generally not built to withstand combat-level attacks like the MRAP's. The funny thing is, this isn't really anything new. The LAPD developed SWAT in the 70's and used a surplus APC with a makeshift battering ram welded on the front.

There's a big difference between the LAPD having one makeshift vehicle and every department from Podunk to North Deerfart having one.

[Madman]

There's a big difference between the LAPD having one makeshift vehicle and every department from Podunk to North Deerfart having one.

True.  Somehow I can't imagine Andy and Barney driving one of these things through Mayberry.

[hotrodalex]

If I was a cop busting into a meth lab, I'd prefer a MRAP to a makeshift truck.

[bing_oh]

There's a big difference between the LAPD having one makeshift vehicle and every department from Podunk to North Deerfart having one.

Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

True.  Somehow I can't imagine Andy and Barney driving one of these things through Mayberry.

Your image of small city law enforcement is rather ignorant...but there's nothing uncommon about that. I've worked in small community law enforcement all my career, so I've heard all the stupid stuff people have to say. People don't realize that more that 80% of this nation's police officers work for what are statistically considered "small departments" and that we do everything that big city PD's do...just with fewer officers and less resources...when they make ignorant comments like, "Why do you wear a vest? You're just a small town cop...nothing ever happens around here!" Realistically, most officers in small communities are more well-rounded than our big city brethren because we DO have to do everything...we don't just take an initial report and call in the detective, evidence tech, or SWAT team because we ARE the detective, evidence tech, and SWAT team!

[NomisR]

I'm getting bad 80s cartoon flashbacks

[S204STi]

Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

Your image of small city law enforcement is rather ignorant...but there's nothing uncommon about that. I've worked in small community law enforcement all my career, so I've heard all the stupid stuff people have to say. People don't realize that more that 80% of this nation's police officers work for what are statistically considered "small departments" and that we do everything that big city PD's do...just with fewer officers and less resources...when they make ignorant comments like, "Why do you wear a vest? You're just a small town cop...nothing ever happens around here!" Realistically, most officers in small communities are more well-rounded than our big city brethren because we DO have to do everything...we don't just take an initial report and call in the detective, evidence tech, or SWAT team because we ARE the detective, evidence tech, and SWAT team!

My local sheriff didn't use to wear a vest... then he was shot and killed on a seemingly routine traffic stop.  Now they all wear vests, all the time...

Look up Roger Coursey.

[bing_oh]

My local sheriff didn't use to wear a vest... then he was shot and killed on a seemingly routine traffic stop.  Now they all wear vests, all the time...

Look up Roger Coursey.

Most departments today have policies regarding mandatory vest wear on duty. I never go without mine and don't understand officers who do. Yea, they're hot and uncomfortable, but it would be even less comfortable to be shot in the chest without one. And the wearability is getting progressively better...I've switched to an external uniform-pattern carrier for a little more breathability and love it compared to my older concealed vest. The thinking is that there's guaranteed to always be a firearm on every scene an officer responds to...he brings it with him. For that reason alone, officers should always wear vests.

[Soup DeVille]

Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

That's still a difference. Whether its needed or not is another debate, but you can't argue that these types of vehicles are kept (if used or not) by increasingly numerous departments throughout the country.

[bing_oh]

That's still a difference. Whether its needed or not is another debate, but you can't argue that these types of vehicles are kept (if used or not) by increasingly numerous departments throughout the country.

And? It's an armored vehicle. Police departments once used (and still use) old Brinks-type trucks for the same purposes. That these are made to military specs (obviously, since they're formerly military vehicles) doesn't make them something sinister...it's not like they come with belt-fed .50 cals and RPG's. Many, many departments of all sizes have had armored and up-armored vehicles stored away for use in critical incidents...and departments with a need but not the budget for such vehicles are now filling that gap with free stuff from the Feds.

[Madman]

Actually, from the article, I took it as four smaller cities are taking possession of one MRAP, indicating that they probably have a joint tactical team (not an unusual thing, given that smaller cities frequently don't have the money or manpower to field a full tactical team by themselves, while they still have a need for such a unit). While the vehicles themselves are normally free, the maintenance and gas aren't...there's still expense in having one of these things.

Unlikely, as these four towns are spread out across middle Tennessee.  Hendersonville is almost in Kentucky and Lewisburg is far to the south of Nashville, going towards Alabama.  Gallatin is northeast of Nashville and Murfreesboro is southeast.  They are just too far apart to make sharing anything practical, especially a giant lumbering military truck.  It sounds to me like they are each getting their own Rambo Wagon.

[NomisR]

And? It's an armored vehicle. Police departments once used (and still use) old Brinks-type trucks for the same purposes. That these are made to military specs (obviously, since they're formerly military vehicles) doesn't make them something sinister...it's not like they come with belt-fed .50 cals and RPG's. Many, many departments of all sizes have had armored and up-armored vehicles stored away for use in critical incidents...and departments with a need but not the budget for such vehicles are now filling that gap with free stuff from the Feds.

Couldn't the departments be getting the F14, F15, F16s from the military along with some retired M1 tanks and possible a couple retired cruise ships?

Or at least all those M16s sitting in storage..

[Soup DeVille]

Couldn't the departments be getting the F14, F15, F16s from the military along with some retired M1 tanks and possible a couple retired cruise ships?

Or at least all those M16s sitting in storage..

The M16s should be being sold via the CMP, but guess who's to blame for that not ever happening, along with those South Korean M1 Garands which were lent (never sold, still the property of the US) to them years ago?

[NomisR]

The M16s should be being sold via the CMP, but guess who's to blame for that not ever happening, along with those South Korean M1 Garands which were lent (never sold, still the property of the US) to them years ago?

Uh..... Obama?

[bing_oh]

Couldn't the departments be getting the F14, F15, F16s from the military along with some retired M1 tanks and possible a couple retired cruise ships?

Or at least all those M16s sitting in storage..

The M-16's in storage are actually offered to departments through a similar program. Like I mentioned above, most departments have them converted to semiauto and have modern furniture put on them so they fit our needs. Obviously, the rest of the stuff doesn't have a place in civilian law enforcement.

[bing_oh]

The M16s should be being sold via the CMP, but guess who's to blame for that not ever happening, along with those South Korean M1 Garands which were lent (never sold, still the property of the US) to them years ago?

The M-16's are either full auto or three round burst, limiting the resale value on the civilian market because of restrictions on the sales of such weapons. So far as I know, such weapons have never been part of the CMP's offerings. The M1's not being entered into the CMP arsenal is stupid.

[Soup DeVille]

The M-16's are either full auto or three round burst, limiting the resale value on the civilian market because of restrictions on the sales of such weapons. So far as I know, such weapons have never been part of the CMP's offerings. The M1's not being entered into the CMP arsenal is stupid.

Such weapons have been succesfully semi-auto'd in a BATFE approved way before.

[Soup DeVille]

Uh..... Obama?

Yep.

And really for that matter, Bush jr. as well as Clinton.

[bing_oh]

Such weapons have been succesfully semi-auto'd in a BATFE approved way before.

Besides the fact that we have an anti-gun President and that "assault rifles" are being demonized in the media, there's little chance that the government is going to spend money modifying those weapons so they can be distributed through the CMP when so many local and state agencies want them and the government doesn't have to modify them. Obviously, the government is going to give surplus to other government agencies in need before they essentially decommission them for civilian use.

[S204STi]

I'd love to get my hands on a surplus M1, though, or M14...

[bing_oh]

I'd love to get my hands on a surplus M1, though, or M14...

There are still field-grade Garands available through the CMP if you're a member of a qualified marksmanship program or shooting club. They're getting rarer and rarer, though. M14's actually aren't that hard to find either, though the prices seem to vary wildly.

[Soup DeVille]

Besides the fact that we have an anti-gun President and that "assault rifles" are being demonized in the media, there's little chance that the government is going to spend money modifying those weapons so they can be distributed through the CMP when so many local and state agencies want them and the government doesn't have to modify them. Obviously, the government is going to give surplus to other government agencies in need before they essentially decommission them for civilian use.

Except they'd be selling them through the CMP, not just giving them away.

[bing_oh]

Except they'd be selling them through the CMP, not just giving them away.

You ignored the political ramifications of the Federal government selling "assault rifles" to the civilian population while attempting to ban them. And, technically, the Feds aren't "giving them away" to local government. They remain the property of the Federal government and cannot be sold or destroyed.